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Balance Discussion (v5.06)

balance discussion

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#41 OFFLINE   Wookie

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Posted 07 January 2014 - 09:02 PM

Ench can tank the same as resto if the ench shammy has a resto shammy healing him t_t

Shield alone makes resto tank more than ench even with the armor talent, and then there are the heals :D
Science isn't about why, it's about why not. You ask: why is so much of our science dangerous? I say: why not marry safe science if you love it so much. In fact, why not invent a special safety door that won't hit you in the butt on the way out, because you are fired.
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#42 OFFLINE   stinkyfax

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Posted 07 January 2014 - 09:06 PM

Stabby's opinion to enhance shamans is biased, as he hates Lenya.
Tristen: Son of a monkey.

#43 OFFLINE   Crypt

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Posted 07 January 2014 - 09:20 PM

View Poststinkyfax, on 07 January 2014 - 09:06 PM, said:

Stabby's opinion to all classes not pally is biased as he hates everyone.

FTFY
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#44 OFFLINE   Bill

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Posted 07 January 2014 - 09:34 PM

Wait, but stabby hates shamans at all, cuz their dmg is highter :P

#45 OFFLINE   Oob

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Posted 08 January 2014 - 04:49 AM

View PostWookie, on 07 January 2014 - 09:02 PM, said:

Ench can tank the same as resto if the ench shammy has a resto shammy healing him t_t

Shield alone makes resto tank more than ench even with the armor talent, and then there are the heals :D

*go enhance and use shield*

*still hs crit windfury for close to or over 100 depending on enemy*

You can use a shield while enhance and still do really good damage... It is not like resto has a +shield block chance talent...(Edit: Yes resto gets water shield, but enhance gets shaman rage... hmm which would you choose :D.)

Enhance has both shaman rage and the t4 to help them tank damage. Earth shield does little or nothing against a big hit. Resto has no +resistance (like enhance) or ignore magic damage chance (like elemental).

Hardly anyone is playing elemental because of quite a few things. Probably the biggest one being enhance just being easier to play. Aside from that there is:

-Mana issues can easily arise from having to use rockbiter / heals.
-Chain lightning has an 8 second cooldown (?) for borderline ok damage.
-Lightning totem does ok damage, but requires enemies to be within range and stay in range (hopefuly not breaking the totem either).

Ele has an anti magic damage talent (5/10% chance to ignore spell damage from one spell), but is still stuck having to use healing wave / rain as their only heals (which uses quite a bit of mana) to help them take damage.

One final note is that higher level and geared players are going to want to dual wield to use two weapon enchants... Dual wielding on shaman = enhance just because dual wielding is 'dps'.

Edited by Oob, 08 January 2014 - 08:19 AM.

Old Hits.
Spoiler

Hatchling #CA : DK should be OP since it is a donator class

Mazz: I will say that YOU are not looking at the talent tree correctly.
Attack Power means nothing for an unholy / frost DK

Nov 14,2013: [WC] You cast Frostbolt at Derek and deal 94 damage with a slowdown effect (Affected by: Critical)
Nov 17,2013: (versus mage boss) [WC]You cast Frostbolt at BonBons and deal 165 damage with a slowdown effect (Affected by:Critical)
For norm frostbolt of about 40 in this setup I say that is rather good :D..

#46 OFFLINE   Tas

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Posted 08 January 2014 - 06:59 AM

So for some elemental info:

[WC] You cast Flame Shock and deal 21 damage + 6  dmg per tick to Mr_Oob
[WC] You deal 15 damage to Mr_Oob (Affected by: Windfury)
Christmas @ Side Door (RADIO): Fire in the hole!
[WC] You cast Healing Wave on Father Tios'â„¢ and restore 49 hp with additional 0 armor for 30 sec
[WC] This spell is Passive!
[WC] You cast Earth Shock  to Mr_Oob and deal 17 damage + 1.5 sec silence
[WC] Your Lava Burst hit Mr_Oob for 19 damage.
[WC] You deal 15 damage to Mr_Oob (Affected by: Windfury)
[WC] This spell is on a cooldown. 1.8 sec is left.
[WC] You cast Flame Shock and deal 28 damage + 6  dmg per tick to Mr_Oob (Affected by: Critical)
[WC] You cast Frost Shock  to Mr_Oob and deal 17 damage + slow down
[


[WC] You dealt 115% damage (0% KPR, 15% Low LVL)
[WC] Mr_Oob dealt 87% damage (0% KPR, -13% Low LVL)



Stats:

Me:

agi 120
int 154
sp 71
ap 33


Oob:


crit reduce: 10.07%
dmg reduct: 33%
spell reduct: 13%

Mana costs:
flame shock: 50
earth shock: 27
frost shock: 27
my max mana: 895

Elemental focus - talent = 2/2
(no frost shock glyph)


(i've just leveled it to 74 with trying to focus int.
Thoughts so far:
Shock damage is dumb. Lava burst damage is.. well.. it's a tier 3 talent doing 19 damage with 1 proc of flame shock before it proccing.
I THINK it is ok..ish... in combination with totem spam, which takes a lot of mana. Making totems more into the game could help.. It obviously doesnt in any way have the same bursting ability as enhancement..... and it's obviously weaker in every aspect.. expect when you can force an enemy to a certain position and totem nuke them.... but thats for 80+ then :)



Suggestions.
Spoiler

Edited by Tas, 08 January 2014 - 07:14 AM.

[12:10] Winters:back in my days
of being young and handsome
[12:10] Father Tios: xD
[12:10] Winters: now im only handsome
<.<


21:29 - #Stinkyfax: i'm sending you my sad waves

#47 OFFLINE   Oob

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Posted 08 January 2014 - 08:13 AM

@Tas post: Funny enough it seems like every shaman I've faced today, notor, tas, someone else (sorry :c), and even myself all do about the same damage for shocks (non-crit at the least for what I've been keeping an eye out for)...

Even though notor has 90+ some odd spell damage and I've got less than 70 (69 when spec'd for it) it seems the norm damage of shocks is as what tas posted...

Edited by Oob, 08 January 2014 - 08:18 AM.

Old Hits.
Spoiler

Hatchling #CA : DK should be OP since it is a donator class

Mazz: I will say that YOU are not looking at the talent tree correctly.
Attack Power means nothing for an unholy / frost DK

Nov 14,2013: [WC] You cast Frostbolt at Derek and deal 94 damage with a slowdown effect (Affected by: Critical)
Nov 17,2013: (versus mage boss) [WC]You cast Frostbolt at BonBons and deal 165 damage with a slowdown effect (Affected by:Critical)
For norm frostbolt of about 40 in this setup I say that is rather good :D..

#48 OFFLINE   Tas

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Posted 08 January 2014 - 09:24 AM

wellllllllp


Tried going fully aggressive (with level 74 im full ele since i cant do oob's super mana-hungry spambuild), and managed to get oomed pretty fast :)
[12:10] Winters:back in my days
of being young and handsome
[12:10] Father Tios: xD
[12:10] Winters: now im only handsome
<.<


21:29 - #Stinkyfax: i'm sending you my sad waves

#49 OFFLINE   stinkyfax

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Posted 08 January 2014 - 09:47 AM

View PostTas, on 08 January 2014 - 09:24 AM, said:

wellllllllp


Tried going fully aggressive (with level 74 im full ele since i cant do oob's super mana-hungry spambuild), and managed to get oomed pretty fast :)/>
Get better gear! :)

Tristen: Son of a monkey.

#50 OFFLINE   Tas

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Posted 08 January 2014 - 10:51 AM

View Poststinkyfax, on 08 January 2014 - 09:47 AM, said:

Get better gear! :)

i have full 73e set + major int chants on it :P


Gief legendaries pls!
[12:10] Winters:back in my days
of being young and handsome
[12:10] Father Tios: xD
[12:10] Winters: now im only handsome
<.<


21:29 - #Stinkyfax: i'm sending you my sad waves

#51 OFFLINE   Fossen

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Posted 08 January 2014 - 11:11 AM

Specced ele and had bok giving me ~95 spell damage, CRIT shocks didnt even do over 30 damage. And the elemental tier one talent "increasing damage by 0.06 per spellpower" gives like 0.5 extra damage on the shock (if im not mistaken) which doesnt help at all>.>
But it seems like shocks never exceed 20 base damage without critting:/
"I stopped believing in GoD when i realised it was DoG backwards."


When everything else fails talk about the weather!

[WC] You cast Healing Rain to  Ajib, idan, Fossen  and restore 65 hp.
[WC] Echo of the Elements
[WC] You cast Healing Rain to  Ajib, idan, Fossen  and restore 65 hp.
[WC] Echo of the Elements
[WC] You cast Healing Rain to  Ajib, idan, Fossen  and restore 65 hp.
[WC] Echo of the Elements
[WC] You cast Healing Rain to  Ajib, idan, Fossen  and restore 65 hp.
[WC] Echo of the Elements
[WC] You cast Healing Rain to  Ajib, idan, Fossen  and restore 65 hp.


#52 OFFLINE   stinkyfax

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Posted 08 January 2014 - 11:52 AM

View PostFossen, on 08 January 2014 - 11:11 AM, said:

Specced ele and had bok giving me ~95 spell damage, CRIT shocks didnt even do over 30 damage. And the elemental tier one talent "increasing damage by 0.06 per spellpower" gives like 0.5 extra damage on the shock (if im not mistaken) which doesnt help at all>.>
But it seems like shocks never exceed 20 base damage without critting:/
96 * 0.06 = 6, how did you come to 0.5?

Tristen: Son of a monkey.

#53 OFFLINE   Fossen

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Posted 08 January 2014 - 11:56 AM

96*1.006=96.576  but i guess i took the wrong way. but still it barely looks like the damage changes when i use the talent or not
"I stopped believing in GoD when i realised it was DoG backwards."


When everything else fails talk about the weather!

[WC] You cast Healing Rain to  Ajib, idan, Fossen  and restore 65 hp.
[WC] Echo of the Elements
[WC] You cast Healing Rain to  Ajib, idan, Fossen  and restore 65 hp.
[WC] Echo of the Elements
[WC] You cast Healing Rain to  Ajib, idan, Fossen  and restore 65 hp.
[WC] Echo of the Elements
[WC] You cast Healing Rain to  Ajib, idan, Fossen  and restore 65 hp.
[WC] Echo of the Elements
[WC] You cast Healing Rain to  Ajib, idan, Fossen  and restore 65 hp.


#54 OFFLINE   stinkyfax

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Posted 08 January 2014 - 12:08 PM

View PostFossen, on 08 January 2014 - 11:56 AM, said:

96*1.006=96.576  but i guess i took the wrong way. but still it barely looks like the damage changes when i use the talent or not
First of all 1 + 0.06 is not 1.006

Then it says that increases damage by 0.06 of spellpower, so it is + spellpower * 0.06

Tristen: Son of a monkey.

#55 OFFLINE   Fossen

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Posted 08 January 2014 - 12:58 PM

[WC] You cast Earth Shock  to Pizza Steve and deal 12 damage + 1.5 sec silence
[WC] You cast Frost Shock  to Pizza Steve and deal 12 damage + slow down


[WC] Pizza Steve dealt 146% damage (0% KPR, 46% Low LVL)
[WC] (Your level: 85, Server average: 72, Pizza Steve's level: 47)


[WC] You cast Air Shock and deal 20 damage and destroys some ammo
[WC] You deal 22 damage to eNDaR (Affected by: Parried Attack, Critical)
[WC] You cast Air Shock and deal 30 damage and destroys some ammo (Affected by: Critical)
[WC] You cast Flame Shock and deal 19 damage + 7  dmg per tick to eNDaR
[WC] You cast Air Shock and deal 30 damage and destroys some ammo (Affected by: Critical)


[WC] You dealt 100% damage (0% KPR, 0% Low LVL)
[WC] eNDaR dealt 100% damage (0% KPR, 0% Low LVL)
[WC] (Your level: 85, Server average: 72, eNDaR's level: 77)
That is with me having 86 spell power without talent enabled.

Enabling talent, now with me probably having kpr. here are some shocks


[WC] You cast Frost Shock  to InFeCtEd #Birdlike and deal 16 damage + slow down
[WC] You cast Earth Shock  to InFeCtEd #Birdlike and deal 16 damage + 1.5 sec silence
[WC] You cast Air Shock and deal 21 damage and destroys some ammo


[WC] You dealt 88% damage (-12% KPR, 0% Low LVL)
[WC] InFeCtEd #Birdlike dealt 129% damage (29% KPR, 0% Low LVL)


[WC] You cast Flame Shock and deal 20 damage + 7  dmg per tick to InFeCtEd #Birdlike
[WC] You cast Earth Shock  to InFeCtEd #Birdlike and deal 26 damage + 1.5 sec silence (Affected by: Critical)
[WC] You cast Air Shock and deal 32 damage and destroys some ammo (Affected by: Critical)
[WC] Your Lava Burst hit InFeCtEd #Birdlike for 21 damage.

[WC] You dealt 89% damage (-11% KPR, 0% Low LVL)
[WC] InFeCtEd #Birdlike dealt 125% damage (25% KPR, 0% Low LVL)


[WC] You cast Frost Shock  to [√ιק]MìşṦ L and deal 26 damage + slow down (Affected by: Critical)
[WC] You cast Flame Shock and deal 34 damage + 7  dmg per tick to [√ιק]MìşṦ L (Affected by: Critical)


[WC] You dealt 92% damage (-8% KPR, 0% Low LVL)
[WC] [√ιק]MìşṦ LøLLîpØp  dealt 119% damage (19% KPR, 0% Low LVL)
[WC] (Your level: 85, Server average: 70, [√ιק]MìşṦ LøLLîpØp 's level: 78)


[WC] You cast Flame Shock and deal 24 damage + 7  dmg per tick to J6
[WC] Your Lava Burst hit J6 for 21 damage.


[WC] You dealt 103% damage (3% KPR, 0% Low LVL)
[WC] J6 dealt 104% damage (4% KPR, 0% Low LVL)

Hmm, maybe the damage is increasing after all.  Probably just used to the shocks from enhance and not seeing the damage increasing by a few points so nvm that. Only minus with elemental is the mana drain from all shocks and if you use heal at the same time you are doomed


"I stopped believing in GoD when i realised it was DoG backwards."


When everything else fails talk about the weather!

[WC] You cast Healing Rain to  Ajib, idan, Fossen  and restore 65 hp.
[WC] Echo of the Elements
[WC] You cast Healing Rain to  Ajib, idan, Fossen  and restore 65 hp.
[WC] Echo of the Elements
[WC] You cast Healing Rain to  Ajib, idan, Fossen  and restore 65 hp.
[WC] Echo of the Elements
[WC] You cast Healing Rain to  Ajib, idan, Fossen  and restore 65 hp.
[WC] Echo of the Elements
[WC] You cast Healing Rain to  Ajib, idan, Fossen  and restore 65 hp.


#56 OFFLINE   Stabby Joe

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Posted 08 January 2014 - 01:11 PM

View Poststinkyfax, on 07 January 2014 - 09:06 PM, said:

Stabby's opinion to enhance shamans is biased, as he hates Lenya.


This has nothing to do with him , but admit it was him who introduced the talent or asked you to.
You give them shamanistic rage heal talent, the ag tank talent and windfury glyph, have u have ever been at boss where a shamy , yes a shamy can more or less solo boss, seems perfect balanced to me. You saying bullcrap now and making it personal, saying I only post it cuz I dont like shamys, Ive got even myself a shamy. You give them that insane dmg while at same time they are tanky.

Make it a shaman server only.

#57 OFFLINE   stinkyfax

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Posted 08 January 2014 - 01:30 PM

View PostStabby Joe, on 08 January 2014 - 01:11 PM, said:




This has nothing to do with him , but admit it was him who introduced the talent or asked you to.
You give them shamanistic rage heal talent, the ag tank talent and windfury glyph, have u have ever been at boss where a shamy , yes a shamy can more or less solo boss, seems perfect balanced to me. You saying bullcrap now and making it personal, saying I only post it cuz I dont like shamys, Ive got even myself a shamy. You give them that insane dmg while at same time they are tanky.

Make it a shaman server only.
> yes a shamy can more or less solo boss, seems perfect balanced to me.
Having to reference to boss balance, when we are talking about pvp balance, just shows how weak your original arguments are.
Mana burn at best makes caster boss unable to deal damage, at worse instant kill him. Does it mean priests are OP? And Mana burn shall be nerfed? No, it has to be diasbled during boss.

Are some shaman spells/talents too strong against boss? Reconsider them, as they most likely were designed not against a 30k hp standing target.

> but admit it was him who introduced the talent or asked you to.
It was him, who said enabling rockbiter during boss is purely OP and shouldn't be done.
It was him, who tells me that shaman is still OP against boss, and suggests me how to fix it.
It was not him, who decided to change enhancement tree. Hani & Aurora came to conclusion that shaman is too squishy, and needs some survivability. That's how +armor spell was born, and T4 talent.

Your hate towards all admins and donators is as clear as water.

Tristen: Son of a monkey.

#58 OFFLINE   Stabby Joe

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Posted 08 January 2014 - 01:40 PM

Rofl did I ever say I hate him or an admin. M8 only cuz you have a personal problem with me and me not being like other ppl always agree with you and being overcharming to lord stinky doesnt mean I h8 ppl. I do both of us a favour and stop posting no point talking to somone who is always right. Sry that I proposed to change the talent cuz i felt its at wrong place making them strong

#59 OFFLINE   Tas

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Posted 08 January 2014 - 02:16 PM

welllllllllllp..


Tried with frost shock glyph :)


Seems to do okeish dmg now ^^

[WC] You cast Frost Shock  to eNDaR and deal 41 damage + slow down (Affected by: Critical)
[12:10] Winters:back in my days
of being young and handsome
[12:10] Father Tios: xD
[12:10] Winters: now im only handsome
<.<


21:29 - #Stinkyfax: i'm sending you my sad waves

#60 OFFLINE   Wookie

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Posted 08 January 2014 - 02:52 PM

Tas you silly fool, most shocks have a secondary effect (silence, slow, dot,..) and if you have a shorter cd on the shocks, or no cd at all for the 2 first shocks, the secondary effect goes to waste!
Science isn't about why, it's about why not. You ask: why is so much of our science dangerous? I say: why not marry safe science if you love it so much. In fact, why not invent a special safety door that won't hit you in the butt on the way out, because you are fired.
- Cave Johnson





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