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Balance Discussion (v5.06)

balance discussion

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#21 OFFLINE   Wookie

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 04:31 PM

View PostStabby Joe, on 05 January 2014 - 04:13 PM, said:

now weapons are  much much better than shields
I will not say whether or not they are better, but they surely scale a lot more from levels 0-85 a lot better than shields do
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#22 OFFLINE   BonBons

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 04:59 PM

View PostStabby Joe, on 05 January 2014 - 03:37 PM, said:

I noticed for a long time the rating of items might be unevenly distributed in classes.

For example with my pimped pally all enchanted even with enchanting proffessiion enchants and legendaries etc, I just hit 1250 rating. When I see shamys they can get close to 1500 rating. May be the huge difference is cuz I use a shield.

A shield has usually rating around 50-60 and a 1 weapon easily 150 plus the weapon enchant. Which brings me bk to my earlier point of bufffing shields. Especially unique drops as shields suck big time and need buff, some of them dont even have spell dmg on for a caster class such as pally or resto shamy a joke. For those of you who dropped them unique shields you know wot i mean all you can do is de them at the moment.

I dont know why shields have this low rating and stats may  be cuz of the block chance, however shields were introduced when we had block chance like 15% or even 20 if I remember right. So you continously nerfed the block but didnt increase the stats on the shields making them poor trade of for 2x1h weapons or a 2h weapon.

Regarding the rating which might be uneven distributed around classes, can somone check if say a full lvl 80 epic set or lvl 85 of the different classes gives basically more or less same rating, or should have some classes higher ratings?

Okay. I do agree that shields do have much lower rating. The 73e Paladin Craftable Shield has 70.3 rating when all of the 73e 1handed weapons have 120 - 130 rating. My shaman only has close to 1500 rating is because I'm sitting on the NYE 4 85e items (Helmet 74.3, Hands 55.1, Ring 49.5, Trinket 79.1) normally I only have around 1300 rating. But I don't really get why rating is part of balance. I have got items that were dynamic drops with more rating than 80e and have stats that I wouldn't even use at level 10.

Crypt's Shaman that is 85 with mainly 73e gear has only like 100 less rating than my shaman who has 85e 80e and many dynamics. Yet his stats are much lower than you would think only having 100 less rating than me.

I'm not saying shields are fine. They might be under powered or over powered. I don't really have a strong opinion on the matter. It's just that you keep bringing rating into the topic when rating is just a number. Don't get me wrong rating does have something to do with it, most of the time rating shows the amount of stats your character may have. But I wouldn't base anything off of it. Not with how many dynamics have retarded stats with very good rating.
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#23 OFFLINE   Stabby Joe

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 05:19 PM

Bons , but for instance, my pally has lvl 85 epics head shoulders , legs and feet and legendary chest , then some other epic uniques etc.. and all enchanted and the only way i would get pally abover 1.3k rating is by switching from shield to 2h weapon. Im gona farm now honor then i buy the pvp 2h weapon to see if I am right about the trade off shield vs weapon.

However, you must have noticed urself that unique shield drops have worst stats ever , some of them give atk power and no spell dmg wotsoever

#24 OFFLINE   BonBons

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 05:22 PM

View PostStabby Joe, on 05 January 2014 - 05:19 PM, said:

Bons , but for instance, my pally has lvl 85 epics head shoulders , legs and feet and legendary chest , then some other epic uniques etc.. and all enchanted and the only way i would get pally abover 1.3k rating is by switching from shield to 2h weapon. Im gona farm now honor then i buy the pvp 2h weapon to see if I am right about the trade off shield vs weapon.

However, you must have noticed urself that unique shield drops have worst stats ever , some of them give atk power and no spell dmg wotsoever

Its not only dynamic shields, its all dynamics. Like I said before I have got dynamics for all classes that were for example shoulders that had the same or close to even rating but have 1 int and 1 spell damage.
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#25 OFFLINE   stinkyfax

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 05:36 PM

View PostStabby Joe, on 05 January 2014 - 04:13 PM, said:

now weapons are  much much better than shields
Then do not use shields.
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#26 OFFLINE   Stabby Joe

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 06:03 PM

View Poststinkyfax, on 05 January 2014 - 05:36 PM, said:

Then do not use shields.

ok then give pally dual wielding talent,. now they can only equip 2h weapon

#27 OFFLINE   Wookie

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 06:08 PM

View PostStabby Joe, on 05 January 2014 - 06:03 PM, said:

ok then give pally dual wielding talent,. now they can only equip 2h weapon
IT WOULD BE TOO NON-CANON.
Science isn't about why, it's about why not. You ask: why is so much of our science dangerous? I say: why not marry safe science if you love it so much. In fact, why not invent a special safety door that won't hit you in the butt on the way out, because you are fired.
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#28 OFFLINE   Oob

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Posted 06 January 2014 - 05:33 AM

Ele shaman seems near impossible to play, even with the -mana talent I got 2 air shocks and an earth shock on someone and was down over 100 mana...

Only a little over 700 mana to work with... and a lot of that is used for healing myself -.-'...
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For norm frostbolt of about 40 in this setup I say that is rather good :D..

#29 OFFLINE   Stabby Joe

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Posted 07 January 2014 - 03:35 PM

Coming to shamys, I just switched my resto shamy to enhancement shamy. My shamy with shield and with resto shield has actually less armor when going enhancement. When switching to enhancement I end up with more armor , crit and dps. That tier 4 talent which gives you armor based on ag, should be never in this talent tree. Non resto shamys with no shields can easily end up with more armor, and having at the same time that insane dmg tree with all them benefits.

I propose to switch that talent to resto tree there it makes sense, and might change it to int, so based on your int you gain armor, so you don get weird hybrids builts, so you actually benefit them resto shamys who aim for int and hence heals.

#30 OFFLINE   stinkyfax

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Posted 07 January 2014 - 04:10 PM

I am not convinced that restor shamans die too easily.

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#31 OFFLINE   Wookie

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Posted 07 January 2014 - 04:15 PM

View Poststinkyfax, on 07 January 2014 - 04:10 PM, said:

I am not convinced that restor shamans die too easily.
But why should restoration shaman be a tank in the first place? It's for ze heals and saying resto should be tank because resto uses shield is not really a valid excuse. Resto hovers around - surprise, surprise - over healing, unless the dev team wants to bend iron :D

IDK what resto really needs, as IMO it could be overkill to give them even more healing, and I have no insight in the matter itself.
Science isn't about why, it's about why not. You ask: why is so much of our science dangerous? I say: why not marry safe science if you love it so much. In fact, why not invent a special safety door that won't hit you in the butt on the way out, because you are fired.
- Cave Johnson

#32 OFFLINE   stinkyfax

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Posted 07 January 2014 - 04:24 PM

My point, restors do not require extra survivability talent. At least I do not see the urgency in it.

Why DPS tree has a defensive talent? Same reason other classes have, dps does not mean one-hit-kill-or-die.

What I would like to look into, is why there are no Elemental shamans.

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#33 OFFLINE   Sirchipnsalsa

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Posted 07 January 2014 - 04:30 PM

View Poststinkyfax, on 07 January 2014 - 04:24 PM, said:

My point, restors do not require extra survivability talent. At least I do not see the urgency in it.

Why DPS tree has a defensive talent? Same reason other classes have, dps does not mean one-hit-kill-or-die.

What I would like to look into, is why there are no Elemental shamans.
I play ele shaman. It's pretty strong but you run out of mana in like two kills. Also, using all your totems is about 1/3 of your mana. Their damage is good, though.
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#34 OFFLINE   Stabby Joe

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Posted 07 January 2014 - 06:21 PM

so stinky your logic its okay a non shield char aim for high dps ends up with more armor than somone specing for tank with armor. Okay love your sense and resto by far doesnt do anywear near the dmg the other shamys tree do , its a healer and not really that tanky. But hey leave enhancement shamys as they are as they top donator class

I only proposed to switch the talent or get rid of it, makes clear sense somone using shield ends up with less armor

I wonder whose idea it was to introduce this talent in first place.

#35 OFFLINE   Wookie

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Posted 07 January 2014 - 06:27 PM

View PostStabby Joe, on 07 January 2014 - 06:21 PM, said:

so stinky your logic its okay a non shield char aim for high dps ends up with more armor than somone specing for tank with armor. Okay love your sense and resto by far doesnt do anywear near the dmg the other shamys tree do , its a healer and not really that tanky. But hey leave enhancement shamys as they are as they top donator class

I only proposed to switch the talent or get rid of it, makes clear sense somone using shield ends up with less armor

I wonder whose idea it was to introduce this talent in first place.
Nobody has said that resto is supposed to be the tank shammy, though..

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Originally, shaman were almost allowed a tanking role[1] through the old enhancement talent tree. Their lack of heavy plate armor and the various changes made to their talent trees over time phased out their tanking potential in favor of healing and damage dealing. While most shaman are capable of adequately tanking instances prior to reaching level 60, higher level areas and instances require tanks to have stronger passive defenses and damage mitigation than shaman have, despite their versatility and healing abilities.

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A shaman's role in parties and raids will vary depending on how they choose to specialize and equip themselves. For example, a shaman who has specced enhancement (and geared accordingly) may have problems healing, but will greatly enhance melee group attack speed via [Unleashed Rage]. On the other hand, a restoration shaman gets very little benefit from going melee, whereas elemental shaman can cast ranged DPS and still cast the occasional support heal and possibly main heal any 5-man instance.

While the dev does not copy everything from WoW, I did those quotes just to point out how resto is not by any means a tanking spec, quite the opposite, actually.
( http://www.wowwiki.com/Shaman )
Science isn't about why, it's about why not. You ask: why is so much of our science dangerous? I say: why not marry safe science if you love it so much. In fact, why not invent a special safety door that won't hit you in the butt on the way out, because you are fired.
- Cave Johnson

#36 OFFLINE   Fossen

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Posted 07 January 2014 - 06:38 PM

Resto is pretty fun and with Natures power you are allowed to have a decent amount of spell power.
The only thing is that you run out of mana WAY to fast. Now i havent even tried using lightning totem because
it'd empty my mana even faster. I have around 750mana in elemental and one shock costs between 22 and 35 mana. So having those procc, plus totems 90+50 and heal 89 mana per you easily use 50% mana in one fight. And when you are oom, which you will be pretty fast ele is useless because it barely has mana regen if you dont choose to take it from the resto tree. So giving resto some way to regen mana, i.e something equivalent to water shield just that it counts on hitting instead of getting hit?
Resto is still just a something like a healer class  which CAN bite a bit but not nearly something like a dps can.
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#37 OFFLINE   Crypt

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Posted 07 January 2014 - 06:56 PM

I think we can agree that enhance shaman is in a good place right now with the 5.06b nerfs. I have not played resto yet but I am assuming it is only slightly affected by the change. The lose about 150 armor but their tankiness was not just from armor but the heals and earth shield.

To address elemental shamans I have a few suggestions
-Make a glyph/ talent that makes a shock give mana. So you can make an air shock glyph that instead of taking ammo it can restore like 5% mana when it procs. Honestly I barely see it proc and I think that would at least help with some mana problems.
-Give a new talent similar to water shield to just gain more mana
-Lower the cost of shocks but give elemental a way to boost the damage and mana cost (similar to the mage arcane talent) this will make ele way more dependent on shocks but that is kinda the point of the spec.
-Give fire and lightning totem a mana refund capability that rewards good placement of totems so hitting an enemy gives 20% of the totem's mana back and hitting a lot more would mean that you could gain enough mana to place way more totems. At the moment totems are pretty lackluster I use earthbind totem if I am camping somewhere and fire to watch my back. It is very hard to get a lot of damage from totems as they can be easily destroyed and ran away from.
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#38 OFFLINE   Stabby Joe

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Posted 07 January 2014 - 08:39 PM

sry but just remove ag armor bonus thing its far too op. having more armor as an shield char makes sense while doing triple the dmg, resto never ever will hit as hard as enhancement and yet enhancement can tank prolly the same while haveing dps and crit buff talent

#39 OFFLINE   stinkyfax

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Posted 07 January 2014 - 08:43 PM

View PostStabby Joe, on 07 January 2014 - 08:39 PM, said:

sry but just remove ag armor bonus thing its far too op. having more armor as an shield char makes sense while doing triple the dmg, resto never ever will hit as hard as enhancement and yet enhancement can tank prolly the same while haveing dps and crit buff talent
I suggest we nerf paladins, beause they have more armor, and deal more damage than priests
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#40 OFFLINE   Porta

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Posted 07 January 2014 - 08:57 PM

View Poststinkyfax, on 07 January 2014 - 08:43 PM, said:

I suggest we nerf paladins, beause they have more armor, and deal more damage than priests

That sounds cool

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