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Balance Discussion (v5.06)

balance discussion

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#1 OFFLINE   Sirchipnsalsa

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 04:47 PM

Hey guys, I know there's a few balance issues currently... I'm making this thread in hopes we can all have an intelligent and productive discussion on how to balance. This topic will be heavily moderated. Any off-topic, trolling, or useless comments will be deleted. Please post suggestions and comment on others' suggestions. I'll post a few of mine also.
I encourage you guys to make other threads if you want to talk in-depth about a specific class/spell. That IS one of the uses of this forums.

Once again, this is a heavily moderated topic. Keep it intelligent and do not flame someone for their suggestion. Post in a constructive manner explaining why you disagree and leave emotions out of it. These rules go for the entire balance section(meaning any posts are subject to removal by these guidelines). No, I'm not going to delete your valid suggestions for any reason. Pulling the "Chip hates X class so he deleted my suggestion" card is a good way to get banned.

As example(This is one of my ideas also):

GOOD POST:
Shamans -
Problem?
High magic damage multiple multiplier proc spells(windfury, crit), not enough resistance to deal with it.
Ancestor's Protection(t4) gives insane amounts of resistance.
Needs little to no mana.

Proposed solutions:
Rework rockbiter so it gives +X amount of magic damage every hit(instead of splitting it as half magic and half physical[without talent]), perhaps change the spell penetration you gain off of it into the amount of damage it does(obviously subject to change, I haven't ran the numbers). Problems: Turns shaman into more of a P90 class.

Replace Ancestor's Protection with Lightning Shield or Summon Fire Elemental(1/2 gives talent, 2/2 gives it abilities)

Remove mana gain from shamanistic rage.

BAD POST:
SHAMANS OP PLS NERF WTF BLIZ MY PALADIN SUX REMOVE SHAMMIES WOW

Let's see what you guys can come up with.
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#2 OFFLINE   Fossen

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 04:59 PM

Removing mana gain would bring back the issue of Shamans not being able to do anything because one totem is 1/10th of your mana, and usually people use both earthbind and fire totem. Then you also have your heal which is 1/10th of your mana per heal and if you use healing rain+heal then 1/3 of your mana is gone. So in a normal 1v1 or 1v2/1v3 you usually use up 2/3 of your mana. And if we cant regain it then we'd be a 1fight class where we can just suicide after because we dont have the mana to continue. Unless you have Lenya/bons gear.

But i agree that something should be done with Ancestor's Protection, i.e nerf the resistance gain you get because i (who doesnt have that much agi) have 30% spell reduction and that is abit much for a pure dps class.
As far as i remember rockbiter has always been a problem and it has been nerfed/buffed up again and nerfed for a long time and before the last reset it was actually a matter of thinking if you were to apply rockbiter or not because lots of classes had alot of resistance (i.e lock and dk) so it'd be better to go with more physical damage. So i'd say instead of fixing rockbiter adding more resistance to plate gear or something would be a better "fix"
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When everything else fails talk about the weather!

[WC] You cast Healing Rain to  Ajib, idan, Fossen  and restore 65 hp.
[WC] Echo of the Elements
[WC] You cast Healing Rain to  Ajib, idan, Fossen  and restore 65 hp.
[WC] Echo of the Elements
[WC] You cast Healing Rain to  Ajib, idan, Fossen  and restore 65 hp.
[WC] Echo of the Elements
[WC] You cast Healing Rain to  Ajib, idan, Fossen  and restore 65 hp.
[WC] Echo of the Elements
[WC] You cast Healing Rain to  Ajib, idan, Fossen  and restore 65 hp.


#3 OFFLINE   Tas

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 06:04 PM

Fixing 80 epic and 78 epic gear to actually give proper stats for the class & spec they are for...


For example
80 epic dps ring
Spoiler

That doesn't look very dpsly to me :P

whilst here's the 73e counterpart.

73 epic dps ring
Spoiler
and that's a perfect example of how a dps item should look to me :)

E*

Also it'd be fun imo to remove those "-1% movement speed" from all but special items....

Although, i can start fixing these if some one was nice enough to give me the actual values for each stats and the amounts what each part can have..

Edited by Tas, 04 January 2014 - 06:13 PM.

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#4 OFFLINE   Fossen

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 06:23 PM

Yeah i agree to that. if 80 epics are an upgrade at all, its only for a few stats.
Monk 80 epic hands had 5agi,5sta and 1% attack speed.
73epic has 4agi,5sta and 1% attack speed if i remember correctly.
So having actualy gear lvl count, 73 epics being worse than 78, 78 worse than 80 epics etc would be nice.
"I stopped believing in GoD when i realised it was DoG backwards."


When everything else fails talk about the weather!

[WC] You cast Healing Rain to  Ajib, idan, Fossen  and restore 65 hp.
[WC] Echo of the Elements
[WC] You cast Healing Rain to  Ajib, idan, Fossen  and restore 65 hp.
[WC] Echo of the Elements
[WC] You cast Healing Rain to  Ajib, idan, Fossen  and restore 65 hp.
[WC] Echo of the Elements
[WC] You cast Healing Rain to  Ajib, idan, Fossen  and restore 65 hp.
[WC] Echo of the Elements
[WC] You cast Healing Rain to  Ajib, idan, Fossen  and restore 65 hp.


#5 OFFLINE   Stabby Joe

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 08:11 PM

Fix shields plz, the rating and the stats of shields are terrible compared to 1h weapons or a 2h weapon.

On top since hani did some changes, the pvp shields for pally have no spell dmg now- for a caster class this sux big time. Even the lvl 60 epic shield has 7 spell dmg.

Pallys judgement dmg is so low now, even with 108 spell dmg and 5 holy power I barely hit over 70 dmg.

Okay I know in the past the dmg was too high but now its too low.  May be keep judgment low dmg but introduce like a percentage of dmg is given bk has hp. Or by using a glyph.


Shamys, having a healer shamy, retri shamy , I find them very squishy compared to them imba enchanement shamys. Shouldnt be the healer shamy the tank one with heals and less dmg, then may be reconsider the spell which gives armor based on your ag and change it to int gives you armor , actually benifiting them shamys who do aim to play healer. Now this spell benifits actually enchancement shamys making them too tanky and at same time buffing their lava strike and crit chance.


Thirdly I got this idea why not introduce a gold shop item, which resets the stats of the item and you can then choose how to put the stats without changing the rating, like that ppl could more built their very unique built and increase gold spending.

#6 OFFLINE   Crypt

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 08:32 PM

The way I see it is that Shaman is the class that relies most on good aim. You could argue arms warrior too which I would agree but shaman gets rewarded very well for having good aim.

Looking at the thread made by stabby, Stinky says that shaman's are tank killers it is just that if you can kill a tank in 5 seconds that means any squishier class can be melted in less than 3.
A few much needed nerfs to shaman:
-Nature's Combatant- Basically if you hit every bullet you never have to reload. What this causes is if you are shooting 2+ people in a line you literally can spray for hours due to the fact that more bullets can be added than used. A change that would help would be to make it a 15-30% chance of gaining 2 bullets making it so that theoretically you can't shoot forever.
-Rockbiter: I get 18 penetration without procs just spawning. A proposed change would be to make it % based. This just makes it so high resistance tanks will die to shamans but something like a mage with 10 resistance won't get destroyed.
-Ancestor's Protection + that Bullshit agi = armor talent: I think I'll just say this that giving a stat more than one effect or allowing a stat to scale with more than the regular amount causes cookie cutter builds and promotes one good build. The thing about enhancement shaman is that they literally have no use for any of the other 3 main stats as Agility gives the most damage and survivability. Proposed change would be to make the t4 of enhance remove the armor portion making it so that agi does not give both stats but rather just one.

HNS is starting Ill come back to this later.
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#7 OFFLINE   stinkyfax

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 08:35 PM

View PostCrypt, on 04 January 2014 - 08:32 PM, said:

The way I see it is that Shaman is the class that relies most on good aim. You could argue arms warrior too which I would agree but shaman gets rewarded very well for having good aim.

Looking at the thread made by stabby, Stinky says that shaman's are tank killers it is just that if you can kill a tank in 5 seconds that means any squishier class can be melted in less than 3.
A few much needed nerfs to shaman:
-Nature's Combatant- Basically if you hit every bullet you never have to reload. What this causes is if you are shooting 2+ people in a line you literally can spray for hours due to the fact that more bullets can be added than used. A change that would help would be to make it a 15-30% chance of gaining 2 bullets making it so that theoretically you can't shoot forever.
-Rockbiter: I get 18 penetration without procs just spawning. A proposed change would be to make it % based. This just makes it so high resistance tanks will die to shamans but something like a mage with 10 resistance won't get destroyed.
-Ancestor's Protection + that Bullshit agi = armor talent: I think I'll just say this that giving a stat more than one effect or allowing a stat to scale with more than the regular amount causes cookie cutter builds and promotes one good build. The thing about enhancement shaman is that they literally have no use for any of the other 3 main stats as Agility gives the most damage and survivability. Proposed change would be to make the t4 of enhance remove the armor portion making it so that agi does not give both stats but rather just one.

HNS is starting Ill come back to this later.
shamans can be melted in 3 seconds just as well.
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#8 OFFLINE   stinkyfax

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 08:43 PM

I really don't like the idea of "shamans need a way to refill their mana coz they run out too fast".
In my opinion, if they run out of mana to ofast, another solution would be lowering the mana cost, rather than giving them an ultimate solution to refill mana
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#9 OFFLINE   Crypt

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 08:50 PM

View Poststinkyfax, on 04 January 2014 - 08:35 PM, said:

shamans can be melted in 3 seconds just as well.

True but I find it is close to impossible to die so fast as I have 40% spell reduction and 40% armor reduction which results in me being able to always deal  more damage in a fight unless I'm KPR nerfed.
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#10 OFFLINE   Wookie

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 09:02 PM

We really can't go around giving players to customize the stats in their items ESPECIALLY after now the items require no flat stats (would lead into some really imba pure builds. Paladin going for spell power/int only? NP, just look out for my 260 resistance warlock)
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#11 OFFLINE   Fossen

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 09:24 PM

We cant only look at shaman as the problem here, gear might also be an issue.
Also here are some suggestions from me for shaman atleast:
Remove the basic agi=armor spell, we are a leather class. we arent supposed to have that much armor.
Nerf Natures combatant to i.e what crypt suggested, 15-30% chance instead of 50.
Nerf ancestors protection to 4-5 1/2 and tops 10% in 2/2
Rockbiter is fine tbh, but another way adding more resistance to the classes which would need it, i.e plate as i already mentioned. Could also do something like crypt also proposed making it % based.
Shamanisitic rage: adding a maximum hit of 5 so you cant get more than 50% mana back because its a 25% chance to get 10% mana back.
"I stopped believing in GoD when i realised it was DoG backwards."


When everything else fails talk about the weather!

[WC] You cast Healing Rain to  Ajib, idan, Fossen  and restore 65 hp.
[WC] Echo of the Elements
[WC] You cast Healing Rain to  Ajib, idan, Fossen  and restore 65 hp.
[WC] Echo of the Elements
[WC] You cast Healing Rain to  Ajib, idan, Fossen  and restore 65 hp.
[WC] Echo of the Elements
[WC] You cast Healing Rain to  Ajib, idan, Fossen  and restore 65 hp.
[WC] Echo of the Elements
[WC] You cast Healing Rain to  Ajib, idan, Fossen  and restore 65 hp.


#12 OFFLINE   stinkyfax

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 10:34 PM

View PostFossen, on 04 January 2014 - 09:24 PM, said:

We cant only look at shaman as the problem here, gear might also be an issue.
Also here are some suggestions from me for shaman atleast:
Remove the basic agi=armor spell, we are a leather class. we arent supposed to have that much armor.
Nerf Natures combatant to i.e what crypt suggested, 15-30% chance instead of 50.
Nerf ancestors protection to 4-5 1/2 and tops 10% in 2/2
Rockbiter is fine tbh, but another way adding more resistance to the classes which would need it, i.e plate as i already mentioned. Could also do something like crypt also proposed making it % based.
Shamanisitic rage: adding a maximum hit of 5 so you cant get more than 50% mana back because its a 25% chance to get 10% mana back.
What gives shamans armor from agility? Spell, talent? Name it please.
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#13 OFFLINE   Crypt

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 10:39 PM

View Poststinkyfax, on 04 January 2014 - 10:34 PM, said:

What gives shamans armor from agility? Spell, talent? Name it please.

  }
  "12"              //increases armor by 1 per agi
  {
    "name"    "Agile Defence"
    "name_ru" "TODO"
    "event"   "player_spawn"
    "level"   "12"
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#14 OFFLINE   stinkyfax

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 10:47 PM

View PostCrypt, on 04 January 2014 - 10:39 PM, said:

  }
  "12"   //increases armor by 1 per agi
  {
"name" "Agile Defence"
"name_ru" "TODO"
"event"   "player_spawn"
"level"   "12"
perfecto, thanks :)
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#15 OFFLINE   Tas

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 10:50 PM

http://wowmod.eu/top...or-chips-topic/
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#16 OFFLINE   Oob

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 11:20 PM

View Poststinkyfax, on 04 January 2014 - 08:43 PM, said:

I really don't like the idea of "shamans need a way to refill their mana coz they run out too fast".
In my opinion, if they run out of mana to ofast, another solution would be lowering the mana cost, rather than giving them an ultimate solution to refill mana

I've taken the -mana cost on shock, totems / heals, and taken water shield talent + glyph (1/2 for talent I think) and can still run out of mana on occasion while using rockbiter.

Healing wave can cost quite a bit. I would guess the average heal from it is about 50. The armor is a nice bonus, but the long cooldown and how quickly battles can be usually means that the shaman will opt out of the armor bonus and get +heal from the glyph. Being able to crit heal yourself for about 100 is really helpful for enchance shamans (because getting more crit can be done with a talent). If healing wave glyphed cost the same as it currently does, but normal healing wave was a little less it might make mana management easier for elemental / resto shamans that opt out of the healing wave glyph for other glyphs. It would also help lower level shamans (who don't have a high mana pool) more easily manage their mana too.

Probably the most 'mana hungry' problem is when dropping both totems and they don't do anything. You end up spending over 100 mana for no effect at all :/. Perhaps a good spot for a 'base' cost of using the spell followed by a one time mana usuage on it hitting an enemy (I specify one time because earthbind totem 'hits' many times, and glyphed fire totem hits many times too :P). Perhaps 75% 'base' cost and then 25% of the cost if it hits an enemy. Still makes tactical placement of totems important, but is a little forgiving if you didn't even hit anyone.

** Though both totems say they have '400' range according to data.wowmod it always seems that earthbind totem will proc 2/3 times before a fire nova totem even if both are placed at exactly the same place. I'm not sure why this is >.>.

After that earth shield is some what expensive and depending on how much damage you are taking makes / breaks it being useful. This is good though, but it kinda sucks to use earth shield and then take two shots from someone like an arms warrior and be at 30% hp :S. Mainly using it to non-dps ish classes and dot is usually the safest bet. So earth shield for me is kinda on the edge, yes it costs quite a bit, but it is usually worth it. It would be interesting to make it have a 'base' casting cost and then heal and cost some mana per hit (mana shield esk). It would be nice if the talent info was updated too...

For me rockbiter just seems strong as is and improved rockbiter just becomes overkill. I think if improved rockbiter just removed the mana cost from rockbiter people would still be happy with shamans and it would help mana usage on enhancement :P? This would help lower the derpy damage of shamans with out having to add resistance to every item / making it possible to choose between good damage reduction and resistance when equipping gear.

There are only two enchants for resistance on gear, helm and back. It changes the base of 10% resistance to 13% resistance. This doesn't seem to help much against 100+ dmg hs etc. from shamans >_>. Even with this and -20% damage from spells talent in arcane talent tree for mages it is still 100+, but this is probably more so due to having 'low' damage reduction, 22/24% ish.

Nature's combat just seems really powerful. I would love to see it removed and replaced with something else especially if the imp rockbiter change I suggested got implemented.
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For norm frostbolt of about 40 in this setup I say that is rather good :D..

#17 OFFLINE   Tas

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 04:42 AM

1.

If you run out of mana as a level 85 resto, you're doing something wrong
(water shield, water shield, water shield!... glyph it?)

2.

Enhancement doesn't need mana to do it's thing, damage. (and whatever you do, do not increase their mana gain!!!!!!!!! unless you want super dps healing insane amounts while running at 120%..... they already have the tier 3 talent for dmg reduction & mana gain.)

3.

Elemental is prolly the only spec that actually has some mana problem. I sort of agree on the totem mana thing. (Maybe for elemental, make something return mana based on either damage taken or damage done?... not flat mana regen, but situational.)

While leveling, Enhancement is obviously easiest due to not necessarily needing that much mana to get kills.
While elemental.. well i've never tried to level as elemental (except in wowmod 2), nor have i seen any one try that. (due to how easy enhancement is to level).
Resto at earlier levels seems to be a bit situational, but if you want to level shammy by healing, you'll have a bad time. That's all i got to say for it ;P

(In short, resto & elemental could prolly be buffed @ lower levels, elemental mana thing at later too. Do not in any way buff enhancement.. ever.. any aspect of it.)

Edited by Tas, 05 January 2014 - 04:43 AM.

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#18 OFFLINE   Stabby Joe

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 03:37 PM

I noticed for a long time the rating of items might be unevenly distributed in classes.

For example with my pimped pally all enchanted even with enchanting proffessiion enchants and legendaries etc, I just hit 1250 rating. When I see shamys they can get close to 1500 rating. May be the huge difference is cuz I use a shield.

A shield has usually rating around 50-60 and a 1 weapon easily 150 plus the weapon enchant. Which brings me bk to my earlier point of bufffing shields. Especially unique drops as shields suck big time and need buff, some of them dont even have spell dmg on for a caster class such as pally or resto shamy a joke. For those of you who dropped them unique shields you know wot i mean all you can do is de them at the moment.

I dont know why shields have this low rating and stats may  be cuz of the block chance, however shields were introduced when we had block chance like 15% or even 20 if I remember right. So you continously nerfed the block but didnt increase the stats on the shields making them poor trade of for 2x1h weapons or a 2h weapon.

Regarding the rating which might be uneven distributed around classes, can somone check if say a full lvl 80 epic set or lvl 85 of the different classes gives basically more or less same rating, or should have some classes higher ratings?

#19 OFFLINE   Wookie

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 04:01 PM

Block stat was nerfed because shields were OP compared to weapons, now it's at least in the better direction
Science isn't about why, it's about why not. You ask: why is so much of our science dangerous? I say: why not marry safe science if you love it so much. In fact, why not invent a special safety door that won't hit you in the butt on the way out, because you are fired.
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#20 OFFLINE   Stabby Joe

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 04:13 PM

View PostWookie, on 05 January 2014 - 04:01 PM, said:

Block stat was nerfed because shields were OP compared to weapons, now it's at least in the better direction

now weapons are  much much better than shields





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