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Damage Reduction/Base Weapon Damage


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Poll: Restrict awp, autosniper, p90? (24 member(s) have cast votes)

Restrict awp?

  1. Yes - 0 Per team (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  2. Yes - 1 Per team (11 votes [45.83%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 45.83%

  3. Yes - Other amount (8 votes [33.33%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 33.33%

  4. No (5 votes [20.83%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 20.83%

Restrict autosniper?

  1. Yes - 0 Per team (9 votes [37.50%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 37.50%

  2. Yes - 1 Per team (10 votes [41.67%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 41.67%

  3. Yes - Other amount (2 votes [8.33%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 8.33%

  4. No (3 votes [12.50%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 12.50%

Restrict p90?

  1. Yes - 0 Per team (2 votes [8.33%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 8.33%

  2. Yes - 1 Per team (8 votes [33.33%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 33.33%

  3. Yes - Other amount (7 votes [29.17%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 29.17%

  4. No (7 votes [29.17%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 29.17%

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#21 OFFLINE   Aurora

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 05:45 PM

View PostEvander, on 21 August 2012 - 03:02 PM, said:

@up
YES! Why would a priest deal lower physical damage than warrior DPS? Priests are supposed to a dps class! <- that is what are we getting atm.
You are getting massive spam or no spam about many things being broken, but you still have your own vision of system, which is for me and for MANY wrong system.
This situation reminds me of previous act of ignorance, which resulted in... we all know how it ended. Please, don't try to make the same mistakes again.

I don't get your first statement, is it a reference to the complaints we are getting?


As for the rest, yes the dev teams vision of how the mod should be might not be the one everyone wants. But taken into account how people react to changes, I would say it isn't so much the changes made as the fact that things change that seems to upset people. However if you have a good idea, or even a mediocre one for how to improve the mod please feel free to post it, all I'm asking is that you do it logically. We really can't use ~98% of the 'arguements' people come with.

Maybe I should have been more clear on my oppinion on this matter:

Yes p90 and the autosniper might be too strong as of now, but they saw a nerf just last patch, was it enough? I would like to wait and see a bit more before nerfing them further. In my oppinion, the autosniper is a noob version of the AWP, a skilled player with an awp would win everytime vs a skilled player with the autosniper, but since noobs can use the autosniper to good effect, well it might make it seem too strong. I mean would you try and rush a guy with an AWP, say up A long in dd2, if you knew he would kill you in 1 headshot, and would hit hs about 2/3 times? No, you would go short or throgh spawn to limit the number of hits he would get off before you closed in on him. Use the same logic for dealing with autosnipers, with the added in fact that you won't die instantly when you poke your head out, thus giving you the option to think tactically.

However what I do feel is a problem is the strength of ambush attacks, like stealth, blink and vanish where you can appear out of nowhere or just from an unexpected angle, because weapon damage is so high, the time it takes to react put you at a severe disadvantage in a fair fight. Would love to 'fix' that problem first, and then see if the p90 is still too strong. The autosniper is still pending.
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#22 OFFLINE   Wookie

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 06:05 PM

Meh, my Wlock got k0'd by 1 AA headshot from caster that dealt 198 damage as critical. I had that pesky ~30-35% dmg reducion on my wlock and no - there were no skill proccs :P
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#23 OFFLINE   Raging

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 06:52 PM

View PostWookie, on 21 August 2012 - 06:05 PM, said:

Meh, my Wlock got k0'd by 1 AA headshot from caster that dealt 198 damage as critical. I had that pesky ~30-35% dmg reducion on my wlock and no - there were no skill proccs :P

Just to rant about Wlock also, Wlock vs Tank : Warlock most of the time wins. That's just my expirience with close-combat Wlocks.
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#24 OFFLINE   Oob

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 07:00 PM

View PostAurora, on 21 August 2012 - 02:32 PM, said:

...
The only times you get more bullets is if your attack speed is faster than 100%, you also deal the same proportion less damage. So while you might have 50% more bullets, you also only deal 2/3  of the damage per bullet, thus a full clip is the exact same damage whether there is 50 or 70. What you want to argue is that the base 50 bullets are too good, and yes they might, but as pointed out earlier put some distance between yourself and the target and pretty much any rifle is better than the p90, so problem is in blink and vanish kind of skills. Well that and people being noobs ;)

You forget to mention that more bullets gives a chance at more hits and thus more on hit effects and most classes that have on hit effects have no cooldown on them or a low cooldown on them (scorch, shocks, poison, to name a few).

Quote

...
Ehm, so because you CAN get one shotted with an awp tanks cannot 'tank'? Why don't we try turning that arguement around and see if that sounds better shall we?

"My main concern is that I have over 40% damage increased and yet some one with no armor can survive one shot with an awp headshot. Sure there is the CHANCE that it happens with there being crit/no crit, proc/no procs, or spells (spam or on hit), and even the chance that they block the shot or not. Why should I focus on being a DPS when people aren't going to die so easily despite of the increased base damage on weapons...? Heck why should I focus on getting damage at all (as an extreme case)?"

Still a crappy arguement, doesn't hold. Here is how you make an arguement:

With 40% damage reduction, a 0 dps attacker will with an awp head shot deal, ~440 console damage, that is ~220 mod damage, reduced by 40%, leaves you with 132 damage taken, crit will add on 50% for 198. If your tank can't survive 198 damage you really need some more stamina, but maybe that's just my oppinion. What are experiencing is more likely that the attacker actually had some extra damage, mages can do 80 damage with spells, low level people can get a huge % bonus, shamans don't care how much armor you got, rogues have a large portion armor reduction and a ton of other skills/abilities/talents that will increase that damage, and well of course warriors got DPS and on procc hits as well.


Never really seen a caster surive an awp headshot from any dps class, save for when iceblock got introduced for mage and the occasion high level priest that had a really strong shield (or for the most part TWO shields of their own) on wich allowed them to take the shot. The topic is more geared towards how an increased base weapon damage is making classes all dps like and how damage reduction is getting underwhelming. I'm sure that this is great for the "sake of the argument," but I really don't think a DPS setup is NOT going to one shot awp headshot when all the base weapon damage was increased...

I did provide the numbers from the game, I did NOT take less than 200 some odd damage because of the awp headshot. The awpheadshot ALONE was the 285 crit (which was a little more than enough to one shot my tank warrior). I guess I should reword my quote in the first post so that it looks like this I guess?

View PostOob, on 20 August 2012 - 05:12 AM, said:

41% damage reduction tank (level 55) vs 8% damage reduction mage (level 58)

Awp HS Comparison

Mage vs. Tank: 285 (crit), a one hit kill

Tank vs. Mage: 383 (norm), a one hit kill

With 40% damage reduction, a 0 dps attacker will with an awp head shot deal, ~950 console damage, that is ~475 mod damage, reduced by 40%, leaves you with 190 damage taken, crit will add on 50% for 285.

(This was done by trying to work backwards with the 285 I stated in my quote in the first post.)

Those numbers look really odd to me. Specifically from "console" to "mod damage." I didn't nab the console damage, but according to http://counterstrike...ia.com/wiki/AWP a headshot will do 459 damage to an unarmored enemy. I think console damage doesn't just magically get reduced by 50% right off the bat (from what it looked like in your post), but rather console damage > damage reduction > crit modifier > damage taken.

One thing that I did not mention was that yes the mage also hit me with both a fireball (~50 damage) and a frost bolt (~30 damage), but those appeared in chat BEFORE the awp head shot's crit damage text. I believe that the awp headshot (285 crit) was seperate from the spells, as in 285 crit was the awp bullet alone and how you explained it sounded like 285 crit = awp headshot crit + spell damage in the same shot. The 198 damage you gave in your explanation then would make a little more sense if the ~80 damage from spells was added on top of it and so the total damage of the awp headshot was around 280 that I said in the first post I made. This is really confusing though because both the frost bolt and fireball appear as two seperate lines in chat. Perhaps if damage can be modified this way on one shot then that shot should say something like this...


Quote

[WC] AwpMage  has cast Frostbolt at You and has done 30 damage with a slowdown effect
[WC] AwpMage  has cast Fireball at You and did 50 damage

[WC] AwpMage deals 285 damage to You (Affected by: Critical, Frostbolt, Fireball)

Versus what it is right now.

Quote

[WC] AwpMage  has cast Frostbolt at You and has done 30 damage with a slowdown effect
[WC] AwpMage  has cast Fireball at You and did 50 damage

[WC] AwpMage deals 285 damage to You (Affected by: Critical)

There is a lot of "behind the scenes" magic esk stuff going on in the mod. Stuff that players vaguely know of. Stuff like "how does increasing my attack power by X amount affect my damage towards similar level players?" It would be really helpful if stuff like this was easier to understand, but what it usually boils down to is "more attack power means I do more damage" and usually players are content with that answer. Yes there is some information on the wiki, but sometimes it can be outdated or incorrect. When a player does ask how so and so is calculated and its towards a member of the code team that person might get a chunk of code thrown at them and expected to understand it (which can be even more confusing).

This is a hell of a long reply to a small portion, but I believe it has a very important point. How was that ONE awp headshot modified? Just by the damage the bullet would do then reduced by damage reduction? Or was the 285 taking into consideration the two spells that went off on that same shot and so without those two spells it would have been closer to 205 even with the crit?

Quote

Again, the problem isn't as much the p90 as the distance required for it to be effective can easily be gained with blink and vanish. If the p90 "cuts through you like butter", why wouldn't an ak or a m4 do the same? Point blank any weapon can be sprayed to the head, well okay any automatic weapon. As for Adrenaline Rush, yes it will increase the damage output by an average of 20% vs your tank, as you don't get that 20% block. But doesn't tanks get some skill at high levels that reduces the damage takent by 20% or more? Hmm Shield Wall perhaps?

Yes an ak or m4 does the "same," but the firerate of the weapons are different (p90 vs riffles) and not to mention that the two classes using these weapons. A rogue will have a higher attack speed than a dps warrior with a 2h weapon. A faster firerate gives the chance for more headshots and for more on hit effects, even if the damage is reduced because of the larger clip the rogue has the chance for more on hit effects makes up for it (in my opinion).

Blink, adernaline rush, and shield wall ALL have different level requirements to have. In the same order as mentioned are when they are obtained. Blink is a really low level mage spell, adrenaline rush a mid to high level rogue talent, and shield wall beind a high level warrior spell.

It feels like that a lot of the balancing is done moreso around the idea that each class being taken into consideration is max level with average or the best gear. It espeically feels like this way when stinky joins the server as a level 85 character with full 85 epics OR full 84 rares / 80 epics. No one can even compare to his gear or even his level, especially with level 81 and above being locked right now.

Quote

Yes the autosnipers are strong at long range, but it can be countered rather easily, again blink or vanish will take out that autosniper, or even a dps class with an awp can. Besides with the damage difference being as small as it currently is, 13% according to bigi but I don't trust his numbers, I don't see why some classes have that big an advantage with it over other classes. So the question is, why aren't everyone using it? Either because it is already so expensive in the game that in itself limits the numbers of them we see, or they aren't as strong as people seem to think, or people just don't like using it. I don't see a reason to nerf it further yet.

Not all classes have that great of mobility as blink or to a lesser degree that of vanish (vanish breaks, you can be aoe'd by fear or frost nova, you are on radar, and you have to physically run to the enemy wich usually means quite a few bullets heading your way or enemies in the way). Even some classes that do have some mobility like spells or abilities these are usually a high level requirement (fade, heroic leap).

Some classes have a big advantage with it because of attack speed or on hit effects. The damage output is also quite good, especially if you headshot people. The "favorite" weapons of the server are probably the p90, ak/m4, awp, and the deagle. The autosniper is more of sit down and kill enemies kind of weapon and many people feel rushing and shooting bullets is more effective. I've sat through a few rounds back to back not getting a SINGLE kill with the autosniper because my team mates would run ahead into the chokepoint and get all the kills. This can be extreamly aggrivating because no kills means almost no experience (espeically as a higher level character were winning/object/damage experience is poor in comparison to both healing experience and kill experience). It can be espeically aggrivating when anyone gets within close range and easily kills you for some reason or another, you just lost a highly valuable gun (both money wise and getting kills wise) and now you probably just helped the enemy team secure that area (because the autosniper gets picked up by the enemy and used to lock down the area you were just holding for your team, eg. B tunnles from the back of B bombsite).

Quote

Heck if we restricted m4 and ak as well we would see even more of those weapons!
Heck if we restricted all the weapons but deagles we would see nothing but deagles!

I would say that similar to how popular dust2 the ak and m4 are popular weapons. A gun that random players who join the server would be pissed that it was restricted and would more than likely instantly leave the server.

Quote

I really can't see why that would be better. In my mind here is what you are proposing would be a lot of work for little gain.

If this is towards restricting weapons, I really don't think this is a "lot of work." Could you please clarify what you are talking about here :S?

Quote

First, there is always someone who "qq's", they will always find something to whine about, actually if no one is whining of/about a certain class there is a problem, but if everyone whines about all the classes we might just be getting somewhere. So no, damage wont be lowered again, in my oppinion it is still too low.

If no one is whining about a certain class it may just be so underpowered its not worth playing, that or the class itself is not rewarding or fun to play (like if there was another class added to wowmod wich was just a ripoff of another class with the same or less damge, probably why hunters will not make it into the mod for quite a long time). If everyone whines about all the classes, something is definetly broken with the mod itself probably (I'm talking about every class having a lot of problems), but it is more like people complain about specific aspects of classes (like people complained about the knife damage on rogues, so knifing was changed for rogues).

Instead of whining about a class right now I'm trying to whine about the guns. The problem for me though is that each class can use ALL the guns in CS:S, but to what degrees of success depends on a few other factors of the class and the player him/herself. Attack speed, accuracy, on hit effects, etc. The list goes on for quite a bit.

tl;dr good luck reading the wall, took an hour to type all this up and make sure all the formating and such was right... Tried to proff-read as much as possible, but g2g to school. I'll be back in about 7 or 8 hours. 3 Posts on this topic while i was typing this reply :|... I'll try getting back here soon :C!
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Nov 14,2013: [WC] You cast Frostbolt at Derek and deal 94 damage with a slowdown effect (Affected by: Critical)
Nov 17,2013: (versus mage boss) [WC]You cast Frostbolt at BonBons and deal 165 damage with a slowdown effect (Affected by:Critical)
For norm frostbolt of about 40 in this setup I say that is rather good :D..

#25 OFFLINE   Aurora

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 08:04 PM

See now this post I like :)

View PostOob, on 21 August 2012 - 07:00 PM, said:

You forget to mention that more bullets gives a chance at more hits and thus more on hit effects and most classes that have on hit effects have no cooldown on them or a low cooldown on them (scorch, shocks, poison, to name a few).

I think you are giving on hit effects too much credit. I get that it is hard to figure out where all the damage comes from without actually looking at the code or knowing how it works precisely. So here you go:

Scorch:
25% chance on hit to procc, 0.155 multiplier, your average level 60 mage has what? About 70 spelldamage? Maybe less I guess but I really can't say without checking all the gear for that level. Anyway that is 12.4 damage per procc, or 3.1 damage per hit on average.

Shocks:
All have 11% chance to procc, their damage varies a bit though. A shaman with ~50 spell damage (more than average at level 60), will do Fire for 16 damage (with the ticks), Frost for 9.5 and Earth for 10. Average Shock damage per bullet will be 3.9.

Sinister Strike:
20% chance, 0.1 multiplier. At 100 agi that gives you 10 damage per procc, or 2 damages per hit. Note that this damage will be reduced based on weapon speed!

Heroic Strike:
30% chance, and 0.3 multiplier (of your DPS). DPS warrior with 50 attack power will then do 15 damage per procc and 5 damage in average per bullet, if they have the rage for proccing it on every bullet, which I think we can agree they dont.



View PostOob, on 21 August 2012 - 07:00 PM, said:

With 40% damage reduction, a 0 dps attacker will with an awp head shot deal, ~950 console damage, that is ~475 mod damage, reduced by 40%, leaves you with 190 damage taken, crit will add on 50% for 285.

(This was done by trying to work backwards with the 285 I stated in my quote in the first post.)

What you are lacking is the low level bonus. Also I remembered the base weapon damage modifer wrong, it is /1.7 and not /2.0. So 440 console damage is 440/1.7 = 258 mod damage, 258*0.6 = 155 (after damage reduction), 155*1.5 = 232 crit damage. 22% low level bonus is the difference in this scenario, can't remember exactly what that translates into as a level difference.


View PostOob, on 21 August 2012 - 07:00 PM, said:

One thing that I did not mention was that yes the mage also hit me with both a fireball (~50 damage) and a frost bolt (~30 damage), but those appeared in chat BEFORE the awp head shot's crit damage text. I believe that the awp headshot (285 crit) was seperate from the spells, as in 285 crit was the awp bullet alone and how you explained it sounded like 285 crit = awp headshot crit + spell damage in the same shot. The 198 damage you gave in your explanation then would make a little more sense if the ~80 damage from spells was added on top of it and so the total damage of the awp headshot was around 280 that I said in the first post I made. This is really confusing though because both the frost bolt and fireball appear as two seperate lines in chat. Perhaps if damage can be modified this way on one shot then that shot should say something like this...

We have previously seem some weird damage results, like DPS warriors doing 1 damage with AWP headshot, or getting a double hit, and other weird cases we actually can't explain. It is entirely possible that the damage shown (285) was with one or both spells added on top of that, but those scenarios happen rarely and haven't been able to pin point when and how it happens, so can't do anything about that.

There is a lot of "behind the scenes" sort of stuff happening, like telling how much extra damage each point of attack power will give you, low level bonuses, how much extra damage a crit actually adds and some other stuff. But in general people don't really care in my experience, yes 'hardcore' people will care and will want as much info as possible, but the wider population seems fine with having less info thrown at them all at once. Remember Bashioks mom have to be able to play as well! (D3 humour to those who didn't catch it).



View PostOob, on 21 August 2012 - 07:00 PM, said:

Yes an ak or m4 does the "same," but the firerate of the weapons are different (p90 vs riffles) and not to mention that the two classes using these weapons. A rogue will have a higher attack speed than a dps warrior with a 2h weapon. A faster firerate gives the chance for more headshots and for more on hit effects, even if the damage is reduced because of the larger clip the rogue has the chance for more on hit effects makes up for it (in my opinion).

On base the p90 deals slightly less damage per hit, but fires more bullets in the same time, P90 has a 900 RPM (Rounds per min) fire rate while the m4a1 has 685 RPM and the AK has 600. It is that difference that the weapon multiplier is there to make up for, currently you only deal 75% damage with a p90, and that includes on hit effects like heroic strike and sinister strike (Note no effect on spell proccs like Scorch or Fireball), which as pointed out earlier isn't really that big a part of the damage right now. Which means that the m4a1 is actually better assuming you can kill in a single clip.

There is only a single problem with the p90 and that is the clip size, due to it being 50 you got enough to take down 2-3 targets while a normal 30 size clip is 'only' enough for 1-2.

But again the main problem I find to be the 'suprise' moment from vanish and possible also blink. Everytime a rogue runs up to you and sprays you to death with a p90 remember, he could have done exactly the same with an m4, and he could even probably have done it in less time.


View PostOob, on 21 August 2012 - 07:00 PM, said:

Blink, adernaline rush, and shield wall ALL have different level requirements to have. In the same order as mentioned are when they are obtained. Blink is a really low level mage spell, adrenaline rush a mid to high level rogue talent, and shield wall beind a high level warrior spell.

It feels like that a lot of the balancing is done moreso around the idea that each class being taken into consideration is max level with average or the best gear. It espeically feels like this way when stinky joins the server as a level 85 character with full 85 epics OR full 84 rares / 80 epics. No one can even compare to his gear or even his level, especially with level 81 and above being locked right now.

Agreed that balancing shouldn't be done solely on basis of how good or bad something is with the best gear at highest levels. But assuming that people got all their spells (or at least the ones they get at 80) isn't that far fetched, remember we will have maybe 3 months without a ton of level 80's running around, and then 6+ months with a lot of level 80's. Nerfing, say Adrenaline Rush, based on the fact that there isn't a shield wall spell to counter it yet isn't a good idea.

At the same time we have to remember that if Rogues seem too strong, we can't just nerf Rogues as an overall class, with small nerfs all around on different skills. We would rather want to pin point a more exact location to change. So say a high level Rogue ability was too strong (Something like Blind or Cloak of Shadows), but no one had figured out that that was the reason rogues, nerfing the Rogue as an overall class would leave all Rogues of lower level at a severe disadvantage. (BTW this is what I think have happened to the Paladin class, next to completely useless low level :P )

View PostOob, on 21 August 2012 - 07:00 PM, said:

Not all classes have that great of mobility as blink or to a lesser degree that of vanish (vanish breaks, you can be aoe'd by fear or frost nova, you are on radar, and you have to physically run to the enemy wich usually means quite a few bullets heading your way or enemies in the way). Even some classes that do have some mobility like spells or abilities these are usually a high level requirement (fade, heroic leap).

Some classes have a big advantage with it because of attack speed or on hit effects. The damage output is also quite good, especially if you headshot people. The "favorite" weapons of the server are probably the p90, ak/m4, awp, and the deagle. The autosniper is more of sit down and kill enemies kind of weapon and many people feel rushing and shooting bullets is more effective. I've sat through a few rounds back to back not getting a SINGLE kill with the autosniper because my team mates would run ahead into the chokepoint and get all the kills. This can be extreamly aggrivating because no kills means almost no experience (espeically as a higher level character were winning/object/damage experience is poor in comparison to both healing experience and kill experience). It can be espeically aggrivating when anyone gets within close range and easily kills you for some reason or another, you just lost a highly valuable gun (both money wise and getting kills wise) and now you probably just helped the enemy team secure that area (because the autosniper gets picked up by the enemy and used to lock down the area you were just holding for your team, eg. B tunnles from the back of B bombsite).

Think on like this: Previously, was this such a big of an issue? No. Why not? What have changed? The answer is the base weapon damage. On hit effects still do the same damage, they actualy do a smaller proportion now. I will say it again the problem is probably more in the 'suprise' element of such skills as vanish, stealth, invisibility and blink.


View PostOob, on 21 August 2012 - 07:00 PM, said:

If this is towards restricting weapons, I really don't think this is a "lot of work." Could you please clarify what you are talking about here :S?

No no, it was a reply to Eva's suggestion of making the base weapon damage ~0, so you could only deal weapon damage if you had attack power :P


View PostOob, on 21 August 2012 - 07:00 PM, said:

If no one is whining about a certain class it may just be so underpowered its not worth playing, that or the class itself is not rewarding or fun to play (like if there was another class added to wowmod wich was just a ripoff of another class with the same or less damge, probably why hunters will not make it into the mod for quite a long time). If everyone whines about all the classes, something is definetly broken with the mod itself probably (I'm talking about every class having a lot of problems), but it is more like people complain about specific aspects of classes (like people complained about the knife damage on rogues, so knifing was changed for rogues).

Instead of whining about a class right now I'm trying to whine about the guns. The problem for me though is that each class can use ALL the guns in CS:S, but to what degrees of success depends on a few other factors of the class and the player him/herself. Attack speed, accuracy, on hit effects, etc. The list goes on for quite a bit.

Well yes in the end it is a question of discussing why some classes are stronger with certain weapons than others. I don't even want to think about a discussion where we discussed Valves balancing of the game :P And yes my statement of whine/nowhine isn't universally correct, but is was a funny thought :D
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#26 OFFLINE   Bigi

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 11:03 PM

The weapon damage is still too high. All classes that focused on survivebility are squishy as fuck and all classes with mobility/high attackspeed get a huge boost. I find that DPS dident get nearly as much boost on dmg increase as rogue shaman.

The reason play wowmod is too play somthing that isent(i find css a very good gam) too play good old CSS but somthing more. And when pple get 1shot by awp, well im quite sure there are 5000 other servers we can do that also-.- Im not saying go back too old way, but somthing in between, balance it out. Ive suggested some myself and been plenty of good suggestions from others. So wont bother make a new topic.

#27 OFFLINE   stinkyfax

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 11:55 PM

View PostBigi, on 21 August 2012 - 11:03 PM, said:

The weapon damage is still too high. All classes that focused on survivebility are squishy as fuck and all classes with mobility/high attackspeed get a huge boost. I find that DPS dident get nearly as much boost on dmg increase as rogue shaman.

The reason play wowmod is too play somthing that isent(i find css a very good gam) too play good old CSS but somthing more. And when pple get 1shot by awp, well im quite sure there are 5000 other servers we can do that also-.- Im not saying go back too old way, but somthing in between, balance it out. Ive suggested some myself and been plenty of good suggestions from others. So wont bother make a new topic.
It already is something in between.
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#28 OFFLINE   Aurora

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 01:42 AM

View PostBigi, on 21 August 2012 - 11:03 PM, said:

The weapon damage is still too high. All classes that focused on survivebility are squishy as fuck and all classes with mobility/high attackspeed get a huge boost. I find that DPS dident get nearly as much boost on dmg increase as rogue shaman.

The reason play wowmod is too play somthing that isent(i find css a very good gam) too play good old CSS but somthing more. And when pple get 1shot by awp, well im quite sure there are 5000 other servers we can do that also-.- Im not saying go back too old way, but somthing in between, balance it out. Ive suggested some myself and been plenty of good suggestions from others. So wont bother make a new topic.

I think tanks are fine atm, at least compared to some of the other problems, but I get why it is a bigger one for you. High attack speed really haven't given anyone a big boost, I bet if we gave you a 150% attack speed weapon on your warrior you would see that it really doesn't make a difference for you. Mobility on the other hand, which I feel I've stated in pretty much every single post in this thread, is a problem. Since that has already been established can we move on, perhaps to finding a solution, we are already working on some ideas of limiting some of them, but not ready to make anything final yet.

As for the DPS classes, I presume you mean DPS Warriors vs Shamans and Rogues, and yes they probably got the short end of the stick, Rogues have the mobility and Shamans got high % modifiers. I will say that I'm considering how to nerf Shamans, especially in the Enhancement tree and the skills associated with it, as their % damage modifiers give them a huge damage output compared to the other classes. Rogues we have already covered extensively so lets no reiterate that. Leaving us with Warriors, lets wait to see how they play out compared to the other classes once their issues have been fixed shall we?

As for the 'yet-another-senseless-awp-1-shot-whine' (I think we should copyright that expression, start making some money!), once you start one shotting people with AWP without hitting them in the head, then I will gladly look into it or try to yet again explain what might have happened, because we dont want this to feel like a normal CSS server.
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#29 OFFLINE   Oob

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 06:32 AM

Aurora you forgot to mention that dk is dps class and similar to shaman needs changes made to its on hit effects/modifiers...

Kinda feels like shaman is mana dependant and dk is power dependant.. One easily obtained the othe slowly regenerates over time...

Don't worry about the "1 shot to chest awp shot ftw," I will be giving that a shot soon (I have a good 64 rare 2h to test out). Tank setup is to mostly have some good survivability against the rogue spam... Not to mention ALL of the unique gear I have found was stam heavy and always had higher armor than what I was wearing at the time.
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Hatchling #CA : DK should be OP since it is a donator class

Mazz: I will say that YOU are not looking at the talent tree correctly.
Attack Power means nothing for an unholy / frost DK

Nov 14,2013: [WC] You cast Frostbolt at Derek and deal 94 damage with a slowdown effect (Affected by: Critical)
Nov 17,2013: (versus mage boss) [WC]You cast Frostbolt at BonBons and deal 165 damage with a slowdown effect (Affected by:Critical)
For norm frostbolt of about 40 in this setup I say that is rather good :D..

#30 OFFLINE   stinkyfax

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 08:42 AM

View PostOob, on 22 August 2012 - 06:32 AM, said:

Aurora you forgot to mention that dk is dps class and similar to shaman needs changes made to its on hit effects/modifiers...

Kinda feels like shaman is mana dependant and dk is power dependant.. One easily obtained the othe slowly regenerates over time...

Don't worry about the "1 shot to chest awp shot ftw," I will be giving that a shot soon (I have a good 64 rare 2h to test out). Tank setup is to mostly have some good survivability against the rogue spam... Not to mention ALL of the unique gear I have found was stam heavy and always had higher armor than what I was wearing at the time.
"one easily gained, another slowly regenerates", remember when we changed from mana to rage for warriors? People were so angry on needing to "easily gain" rather than "slowly regenerate". Usually mana is a huge advantage over rage/power
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#31 OFFLINE   Oob

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 03:49 PM

Usually being the keyword.

When you gain and can spend in the same shot I really don't see all that much of a downside to rage/power vs mana. Yes some skills like enrage regen or rune tap (er... the one that gives healing and then better healing done to the dk for a short while after), but with the casting manager, low cost of spells, and how easily it is to gain rage/power the problem is usually "What can I do BEFORE I shoot the enemy?" For a warrior who has only rage, 0 rage means most likely you can do nothing. For a dk though you have runes which give a few options.

If shaman was the "jack of all trades" then to me death knight is a step up from that, like a level 2 "jack of all trades." The tanky like abilities of a warrior and priest (armor with self healing), the dps of a shaman and arms warrior (on hit effects with side effects that do even better damage based off where you hit), armor penetration and an attack speed similar to that of rogues, and a handful of utility spells like mage.

Mana lets you do something before your first encounter and rage/power let you keep up a steady (or faster/slower depending on how you gain and spend it) onslaught of damage. Honestly I would love to see how a mana dependant class would work if it was instead worked like rage/power, only gained on hit. Perhaps hunters could some how use this gimmick :S...

Moreso On Topic: With school just starting up, obviously wowmod time is going to go down a bit. So far I've been focusing on playing my warrior, so I'll try dps when I get the chance.
Old Hits.
Spoiler

Hatchling #CA : DK should be OP since it is a donator class

Mazz: I will say that YOU are not looking at the talent tree correctly.
Attack Power means nothing for an unholy / frost DK

Nov 14,2013: [WC] You cast Frostbolt at Derek and deal 94 damage with a slowdown effect (Affected by: Critical)
Nov 17,2013: (versus mage boss) [WC]You cast Frostbolt at BonBons and deal 165 damage with a slowdown effect (Affected by:Critical)
For norm frostbolt of about 40 in this setup I say that is rather good :D..

#32 OFFLINE   Tristen

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 06:02 PM

You bring up an interesting point Oob, I have thought in the past that base Mana Regen should be -much- higher and the max mana should be lower which could end up make casters choose more between spells on a per fight basis while not leaving them Out of mana and dodging enemies for the rest of the round.

Also while brainstorming here, I wonder what it would be like if Hamstring were level 1 and cost 0 mana to cast shorter recast time  with heroic strike were moved to level 15-30 somewhere and left at it's current or slightly higher cost.
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#33 OFFLINE   Rescape

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 06:09 PM

View PostTristen, on 22 August 2012 - 06:02 PM, said:

You bring up an interesting point Oob, I have thought in the past that base Mana Regen should be -much- higher and the max mana should be lower which could end up make casters choose more between spells on a per fight basis while not leaving them Out of mana and dodging enemies for the rest of the round.

Also while brainstorming here, I wonder what it would be like if Hamstring were level 1 and cost 0 mana to cast shorter recast time  with heroic strike were moved to level 15-30 somewhere and left at it's current or slightly higher cost.
Choosing spells would be much easier with manual cast but there's reasons why we don't have it... Allthough we could ;)

View Poststinkyfax, on 29 October 2012 - 02:45 PM, said:

I declare Monday being an official annoy-hani day

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#34 OFFLINE   Tristen

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 06:36 PM

View PostRescape, on 22 August 2012 - 06:09 PM, said:

Quote

You bring up an interesting point Oob, I have thought in the past that base Mana Regen should be -much- higher and the max mana should be lower which could end up make casters choose more between spells on a per fight basis while not leaving them Out of mana and dodging enemies for the rest of the round.

Also while brainstorming here, I wonder what it would be like if Hamstring were level 1 and cost 0 mana to cast shorter recast time  with heroic strike were moved to level 15-30 somewhere and left at it's current or slightly higher cost.

Choosing spells would be much easier with manual cast but there's reasons why we don't have it... Allthough we could ;)

Oh silly, It already is easy to choose spells, I was talking more about the manual cast ones, especially the high mana cost ones like flame orb or resurrection or hellfire... though the last one costs hp too.
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#35 OFFLINE   TinyTerror

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 01:24 PM

Hey :) Just my two cents.

After derping around as a mostly 80 epic warrior (fury) this is what i've found -

Tanking classes such as warrior/shammy with shield/paladin seem to be outdone by the healing classes. I found a disc priest taking over 800 console damage before finally biting the dust.

Dps classes seem to have relatively steady damage, although Rogues are the better choice because with this wep damage buff, they have the ability to spray down an enemy to the front - whereas before they focused more on backstabbing and sneaking around.
Skills like Evade and Dodge are also now one of the most useful, since fights are much shorter and often determined by just a couple of bullets.

Mages and Warlocks seem to have gained the most out of the weapon damage. I had an enemy mage running around with a deagle, nova'ing me, then shutting me down with a headshot or two - in a straight fight, i usually did enough damage to beat them, but it was never an easy task.
Warlocks are still the same irritating class they were before, dem dots man. DoT and run has always been a great tactic, so no change there.

TL;DR ^^^^^That's just what i've experienced.
In no way am i saying Warrior is underpowered - i was doing great damage and had a positive KPD.
It just seems like damage reduction and any attempt at building a decent tank is pointless when all that'll happen is you'll survive 1 to 3 more bullets.
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#36 OFFLINE   stinkyfax

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 01:37 PM

View PostTinyTerror, on 19 September 2012 - 01:24 PM, said:

Hey :) Just my two cents.

After derping around as a mostly 80 epic warrior (fury) this is what i've found -

Tanking classes such as warrior/shammy with shield/paladin seem to be outdone by the healing classes. I found a disc priest taking over 800 console damage before finally biting the dust.

Dps classes seem to have relatively steady damage, although Rogues are the better choice because with this wep damage buff, they have the ability to spray down an enemy to the front - whereas before they focused more on backstabbing and sneaking around.
Skills like Evade and Dodge are also now one of the most useful, since fights are much shorter and often determined by just a couple of bullets.

Mages and Warlocks seem to have gained the most out of the weapon damage. I had an enemy mage running around with a deagle, nova'ing me, then shutting me down with a headshot or two - in a straight fight, i usually did enough damage to beat them, but it was never an easy task.
Warlocks are still the same irritating class they were before, dem dots man. DoT and run has always been a great tactic, so no change there.

TL;DR ^^ ^^^That's just what i've experienced.
In no way am i saying Warrior is underpowered - i was doing great damage and had a positive KPD.
It just seems like damage reduction and any attempt at building a decent tank is pointless when all that'll happen is you'll survive 1 to 3 more bullets.
Tanks are actually doing very well now. The main issue I agree on existence is Healers being too strong, rest are pretty much minor. There will be series of balance adjustments in next few weeks.
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#37 OFFLINE   TinyTerror

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 01:50 PM

Oh cool, thanks for the quick reply Stinky :) I'll give tanking a go when I'm home!
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#38 OFFLINE   Raging

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 02:30 PM

Thanks to the recent stamina buff, tanks mostly survive from mage attacks. Even tho myself im a lvl 71 tank with  345 HP, I can sometimes ( with my shitty aim ) kill a priest or mage.
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#39 OFFLINE   Sirchipnsalsa

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 03:03 PM

With tanks, they're not reliably tanky anymore... Sometimes, it'll take over 2k console damage to kill them due to them blocking 90% of bullets, and sometimes they'll block none and die in 400-500. Make both ends of the spectrum closer together(decrease block, increase damage reduction) is my suggestion.

And then there's Klashnekoff who took 1.1k console damage from me without a shield and still had 70% hp left by himself with no healers...
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#40 OFFLINE   Oob

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 11:05 PM

View Poststinkyfax, on 19 September 2012 - 01:37 PM, said:

Tanks are actually doing very well now. The main issue I agree on existence is Healers being too strong, rest are pretty much minor. There will be series of balance adjustments in next few weeks.

Tanking does feel rather off for warrior is all I have to say for now. I ran around with nothing but dps ISH gear (was all uniques before the unique item system was fixed, so heck of a lot of defense usually and poor stats) and I was doing rather well. The main tank talents I feel that make or break a tank build for warrior is the last stand, rapid healing, and better block chance. With all three I could have over 400hp (just a little bit like 410 was my max) and could usually survive against everything, but the occasional caster. Anytime that I got frozen though or stunned I was basically dead. A few headshots that I don't block (even with high damage reduction) was the death of me.

I would hate to see how tank warriors level 70 ish do with a full tank set... I'm afraid its either they die still quick as hell or they never die... I'm hoping though that it will be the middle ground at least...

(I can't exactly try it out because I don't have the silver to.)
Old Hits.
Spoiler

Hatchling #CA : DK should be OP since it is a donator class

Mazz: I will say that YOU are not looking at the talent tree correctly.
Attack Power means nothing for an unholy / frost DK

Nov 14,2013: [WC] You cast Frostbolt at Derek and deal 94 damage with a slowdown effect (Affected by: Critical)
Nov 17,2013: (versus mage boss) [WC]You cast Frostbolt at BonBons and deal 165 damage with a slowdown effect (Affected by:Critical)
For norm frostbolt of about 40 in this setup I say that is rather good :D..




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