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Damage Reduction/Base Weapon Damage


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Poll: Restrict awp, autosniper, p90? (24 member(s) have cast votes)

Restrict awp?

  1. Yes - 0 Per team (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  2. Yes - 1 Per team (11 votes [45.83%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 45.83%

  3. Yes - Other amount (8 votes [33.33%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 33.33%

  4. No (5 votes [20.83%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 20.83%

Restrict autosniper?

  1. Yes - 0 Per team (9 votes [37.50%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 37.50%

  2. Yes - 1 Per team (10 votes [41.67%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 41.67%

  3. Yes - Other amount (2 votes [8.33%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 8.33%

  4. No (3 votes [12.50%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 12.50%

Restrict p90?

  1. Yes - 0 Per team (2 votes [8.33%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 8.33%

  2. Yes - 1 Per team (8 votes [33.33%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 33.33%

  3. Yes - Other amount (7 votes [29.17%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 29.17%

  4. No (7 votes [29.17%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 29.17%

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#1 OFFLINE   Oob

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 05:12 AM

More and more I'm seeing people using the awp and racking up kill after kill with one shot head shots. This is not just the "usual" shaman / dk / esk kinda of classes, but rather priests, mages, and warlocks. Its already getting tiering having to play dust2 all the time, but when I start seeing my team mates round after round buying awps it gets rather disapointing.

Both teams tend to camp the same areas with the awps, usually shutting down 1/2 the map. Even when you do get close most players appear to be skilled enough to just land one shot on your head and thats all it takes as of now to get a kill with the awp.

Whenever someone has an awp they will camp because they want an easy kill. Most of the time they will not even attempt the objective, in fear of losing their awp.

The awp and autosniper need to be restricted.

Similar to the rediculous damage that the awp and autosnipers do, the p90 tears through most classes with ease and even multiple enemies.

This buff weapon damage & nerf health is not helping so much as it is hurting. Classes need to be changed damage and health wise on a case by case.

Quote


41% damage reduction tank (level 55) vs 8% damage reduction mage (level 58)

Awp HS Comparison

Mage vs. Tank: 285 (crit), a one hit kill

Tank vs. Mage: 383 (norm), a one hit kill


Also gives me a shot at using the topic poll thing.

tldr; restrict awp autosniper p90 buff damage nerf health what a joke
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Hatchling #CA : DK should be OP since it is a donator class

Mazz: I will say that YOU are not looking at the talent tree correctly.
Attack Power means nothing for an unholy / frost DK

Nov 14,2013: [WC] You cast Frostbolt at Derek and deal 94 damage with a slowdown effect (Affected by: Critical)
Nov 17,2013: (versus mage boss) [WC]You cast Frostbolt at BonBons and deal 165 damage with a slowdown effect (Affected by:Critical)
For norm frostbolt of about 40 in this setup I say that is rather good :D..

#2 OFFLINE   RangerDanger

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 05:27 AM

I've never pulled off a 383 normal awp headshot,let alone near 300. Also i never camp with the awp/auto sniper, and it rarely ever is a problem as people leave spawn by the 1 minute mark.
I do however, agree that priests with the new damage buffs are dishing out a decent amount of damage without any spells to face other classes, there almost like paladins.

#3 OFFLINE   Evander

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 09:38 AM

Atm casters with 0 dps are dealing moreless same damage as DPS classes. Not talking about low levels, but I've seen that on +70 levels

#4 OFFLINE   Zallan

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 09:47 AM

I've done over 630 with awp ;3

Tho, its the same as 300 hp, they will die anyways
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#5 OFFLINE   Tristen

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 10:13 AM

I'll admit, I don't like that there are so many AWPer's either but Ya know... a well placed headshot with a cannon really should get the kill, What I can't wait to see is when people pick up on the scout and it's easy ability to noscope and seal the deal with a well placed headshot.
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#6 OFFLINE   hatchling

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 10:22 AM

I agree that there are allot of AWPs but they are easy to kill, I don't see a problem with them.
But those #@!#! auto snipers I see the problem with them, rogue + auto sniper+ stealth = no change

#7 OFFLINE   stinkyfax

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 01:13 PM

I will restrict AWP 1 per team.
What I don't get is a cry "OMG I die from AWP headshot", why should you not?
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#8 OFFLINE   Aurora

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 01:16 PM

Funny thing is I see more "Omg you didn't die from 1 AWP headshot!" whine than the other way around :P
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#9 OFFLINE   Fossen

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 04:59 PM

Well ofc AWP headshot should 1shot/nearly 1shot but when priests,tank warriors and mages can 1shot it gets kinda redicilous.
Warrior dps speaks for itself, rogues and shamans have less attack power but a crit might seal the deal.
Autosniper is annoying if you try range someone but if you get close they'll need to get a lucky headshot to maybe get a kill.

For me p90 will always be the same, noob90>.> I used it myself when i joined wowmod for the first time. It was really strong
because of the fast rate of fire and bullets. But it gets kind of stupid when you and a teammate meets a rogue, he sprays down the teammate and still has loads of bullets so he can spray you down aswell.. I voted yes to restrict the P90 because of its fast fire and magazine, i would be ok with having 2-3 per team but when you meet a full team of rogues/mages with only p90.
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#10 OFFLINE   Sirchipnsalsa

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 06:46 PM

View PostAurora, on 20 August 2012 - 01:16 PM, said:

Funny thing is I see more "Omg you didn't die from 1 AWP headshot!" whine than the other way around :P
Imagine this: You set up the most amazing AWP headshot ever. And they don't die from it or block it. AWPing takes skill, there is no spray and pray. It's high risk/high reward, also. You can easily get rushed by a sprinting/vanished rogue or a blinking mage. I think AWP was fine with 2 per team because you definitely don't want a whole team using AWPs...

Autosnipers are pretty derpy... A rogue with an autosniper can twoshot people with crits upwards of 200. Anyone else see Katze camp spawn as a terrorist and get a triple kill as the CTs came out of long-a double doors? Yep... I think we really could do without autosnipers. Or at least try it...

P90s are just strong atm. It's not the gun that makes them strong, it's that the classes they're used with have gap closers(vanish, blink). It's easy to kill someone with one clip from a p90, but they're ineffective at long range. This is what keeps them balanced. I don't think they should be restricted to a team.
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#11 OFFLINE   Bigi

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 06:53 PM

The thing with p90 is that rogues have 70+ bullets wich makes it almost like para-.-

Also too those dmges too comment/support oob and eva on it:
Around lvl 60 warlock/priest HS me with awp i have around 25% left. A Dps/shaman HS me and ill have around 15% hp left. I dont find it right that there should be so little diffrence between a dmg from a class that depends on casting and a class that depends on dps.

#12 OFFLINE   stinkyfax

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 07:05 PM

autosniper and p90 have huge dmg nerf you are not taking into consideration.
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#13 OFFLINE   Sirchipnsalsa

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 07:17 PM

View Poststinkyfax, on 20 August 2012 - 07:05 PM, said:

autosniper and p90 have huge dmg nerf you are not taking into consideration.
Are you implying I haven't played since that update?...
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#14 OFFLINE   Rescape

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 07:19 PM

View Poststinkyfax, on 20 August 2012 - 07:05 PM, said:

autosniper and p90 have huge dmg nerf you are not taking into consideration.
It would be more handy to resrict them to 1-2 per team.

View Poststinkyfax, on 29 October 2012 - 02:45 PM, said:

I declare Monday being an official annoy-hani day

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#15 OFFLINE   Oob

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 07:22 PM

View Poststinkyfax, on 20 August 2012 - 01:13 PM, said:

I will restrict AWP 1 per team.
What I don't get is a cry "OMG I die from AWP headshot", why should you not?

My main concern is that I have over 40% damage reduction and yet some one with no attack power can one shot me with an awp headshot. Sure there is the CHANCE that it happens with there being crit/no crit, proc/no procs, or spells (spam or on hit), and even the chance that I  block the shot or not. Why should I focus on beind a tank warrior when I am going to die so easily because of the increased base damage on weapons...? Heck why should I focus on getting damage reduction at all (as an extreme case)?

View Poststinkyfax, on 20 August 2012 - 07:05 PM, said:

autosniper and p90 have huge dmg nerf you are not taking into consideration.

You also have to take into consideration the clip size, accurracy, and firerate of each weapon.

I've taken only 15-40 damage from a p90 rogue (mix of crits and sin strikes), but the firerate of the p90 with the faster attack speed makes it cut through my characters like butter (even my tank warrior with 20% block rate and shaman with 15% block rate). Not to mention that rogues that take adrenaline rush (a non specific weapon related talent, as in dagger rogues CAN take it) can make their shots unavoidable and unblockable. Any class with on hit effects can take advantage of the p90 just because of the large clip size.

The autosniper feels very similar to me to the p90 for the mod except that it excels at long range where the p90 excels at close range. A large clip size and good damage (specially with on hit effect and/or head shots) make it a great gun for just about all classes. Heck it was the main thing to use during boss events (even though the main reason was to keep distance from the boss).

I'm glad to see some feedback on this topic, especialy from admins and stinky :D.

Edit: Heck if we restricted autosniper and p90 to 0 per team we might even see other weapons used more often, such as the ump (or the nail gun as I like to call it) or the famas or the galil (not sure if I spelled that right at all :S...).
Old Hits.
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Hatchling #CA : DK should be OP since it is a donator class

Mazz: I will say that YOU are not looking at the talent tree correctly.
Attack Power means nothing for an unholy / frost DK

Nov 14,2013: [WC] You cast Frostbolt at Derek and deal 94 damage with a slowdown effect (Affected by: Critical)
Nov 17,2013: (versus mage boss) [WC]You cast Frostbolt at BonBons and deal 165 damage with a slowdown effect (Affected by:Critical)
For norm frostbolt of about 40 in this setup I say that is rather good :D..

#16 OFFLINE   Evander

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 07:36 PM

WoW damage based on css weapons damage should totally depend on DPS characters have, which would mean almost no physical damage of casters, but high of DPS classes. Not to leave casters defenseless, all spells based on Spell Damage should be buffed.
That's just my opinion. To prevent qq's like: "I was onehitted by fireball/deagle headshot", nerf ALL kinds of damage - to keep survivability of all classes.

#17 OFFLINE   Oob

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 02:18 AM

View PostEvander, on 20 August 2012 - 07:36 PM, said:

WoW damage based on css weapons damage should totally depend on DPS characters have, which would mean almost no physical damage of casters, but high of DPS classes. Not to leave casters defenseless, all spells based on Spell Damage should be buffed.
That's just my opinion. To prevent qq's like: "I was onehitted by fireball/deagle headshot", nerf ALL kinds of damage - to keep survivability of all classes.

This would be interesting, but I think it may be difficult to have dynamic weapon damage.. Or it might be a resource demanding kind of change for the server. I don't know, but if this is possible and probable I'm sure that this would be an interesting choice to look into.

The problem though is that dps classes have on hit effects that add onto damage. If this is added then probably EVERY class would have to be changed which would make this even more time consuming (on top of making base weapon damage dynamic).

This might make buffing a class and nerfing it easier though... Give the class better base weapon damage and it buffs the entire class' dps. Change the modifer on a skill/spell to buff or nerf said damage on that skill/spell...
Old Hits.
Spoiler

Hatchling #CA : DK should be OP since it is a donator class

Mazz: I will say that YOU are not looking at the talent tree correctly.
Attack Power means nothing for an unholy / frost DK

Nov 14,2013: [WC] You cast Frostbolt at Derek and deal 94 damage with a slowdown effect (Affected by: Critical)
Nov 17,2013: (versus mage boss) [WC]You cast Frostbolt at BonBons and deal 165 damage with a slowdown effect (Affected by:Critical)
For norm frostbolt of about 40 in this setup I say that is rather good :D..

#18 OFFLINE   Tristen

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 04:48 AM

[censored]
stuff
[/censored]

wow, nearly rambled again about things but really there's already something like this in play, items.  we could adjust items up/down for classes to balance but the problem is not everyone even has full items for their level yes your suggestion would supercede that by changing the very core of the class and it's base dps but then the problem exists:  "I've lost damage but nothing I have done has changed, why can class A use this sword and get X damage but when class B uses it they only get X-5 damage."  Any nerf/buff to individual classes should really be visible to the players or else it will feel as if the things they do to power up are worthless because when it comes down to it it wont matter how much or little they have it's just their base character doing all the real work.

[crap i still rambled]

I'd considered a system where casters damage would be decided like melee but (weapon "damage" stat, intellect, cs:s damage) but the problem I'm seeing and hearing now is that...

A) People don't want casters (priests) to do as much damage as a warrior with a headshot because they are weaker.
B) People wan't casters damage to be based off of spells not cs:s damage.
...
X) people complain when all a caster has to do is shoot their foot and unload a fireball for massive damage...

Well when you force casters to rely on the spellpower for damage you also have to give them better modifiers for spelldamage but then it's just a sprayfest to land a bullet anywhere to have a spell proc... You know not too long ago it used to be similar to this, now at least casters have to aim to get good damage which I think is very important.

[dammit I did it again.... for a 2nd time  /ramble]
I came up with a system for dynamic damage once, it turns out you really do have to change every skill & spell as well as basically every weapon & caster armor as well as every talent needing to be at minimum checked but most likely changed as well which also means changing the 13,000 line long talents.txt file that contains talent descriptions... and also the one in russian too....

Lets save dynamic damage for the next mod? it would be easier to insert that system from the ground up and build around it... instead of rip the heart out of wowmod and then attempt to stitch in a tesseract shaped rubix cube.



I apologize if i went wayyyyyyyy off track there, I didn't mean to do it but i'm not deleting it since it's at least on topic :)
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#19 OFFLINE   Aurora

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 02:32 PM

Wauv what a lot of bullshit in this thread :D Okay that wasn't fair but let me just adress some of "problems" with the p90 you have.

View PostBigi, on 20 August 2012 - 06:53 PM, said:

The thing with p90 is that rogues have 70+ bullets wich makes it almost like para-.-

The only times you get more bullets is if your attack speed is faster than 100%, you also deal the same proportion less damage. So while you might have 50% more bullets, you also only deal 2/3  of the damage per bullet, thus a full clip is the exact same damage whether there is 50 or 70. What you want to argue is that the base 50 bullets are too good, and yes they might, but as pointed out earlier put some distance between yourself and the target and pretty much any rifle is better than the p90, so problem is in blink and vanish kind of skills. Well that and people being noobs ;)

View PostBigi, on 20 August 2012 - 06:53 PM, said:

Also too those dmges too comment/support oob and eva on it:
Around lvl 60 warlock/priest HS me with awp i have around 25% left. A Dps/shaman HS me and ill have around 15% hp left. I dont find it right that there should be so little diffrence between a dmg from a class that depends on casting and a class that depends on dps.

A 0 dps caster leaving you with 25% left sounds good to me, remember that number will be much higher once you start getting some decent gear. The damage difference you pose also seems okay to me, maybe a little off but only a little, 75% of your health vs 85% of your health for the same console damage, means the dps class will be dealing 13% more damage, add in that the casters will have less survivability and it should even out nicely between the two.

View PostSirchipnsalsa, on 20 August 2012 - 07:17 PM, said:

Are you implying I haven't played since that update?...

He is implying that people here aren't thinking completely logical and if they ran the numbers, probably, they would see that the problem isn't what they think it is.

View PostOob, on 20 August 2012 - 07:22 PM, said:

My main concern is that I have over 40% damage reduction and yet some one with no attack power can one shot me with an awp headshot. Sure there is the CHANCE that it happens with there being crit/no crit, proc/no procs, or spells (spam or on hit), and even the chance that I  block the shot or not. Why should I focus on beind a tank warrior when I am going to die so easily because of the increased base damage on weapons...? Heck why should I focus on getting damage reduction at all (as an extreme case)?

Ehm, so because you CAN get one shotted with an awp tanks cannot 'tank'? Why don't we try turning that arguement around and see if that sounds better shall we?

"My main concern is that I have over 40% damage increased and yet some one with no armor can survive one shot with an awp headshot. Sure there is the CHANCE that it happens with there being crit/no crit, proc/no procs, or spells (spam or on hit), and even the chance that they block the shot or not. Why should I focus on being a DPS when people aren't going to die so easily despite of the increased base damage on weapons...? Heck why should I focus on getting damage at all (as an extreme case)?"

Still a crappy arguement, doesn't hold. Here is how you make an arguement:

With 40% damage reduction, a 0 dps attacker will with an awp head shot deal, ~440 console damage, that is ~220 mod damage, reduced by 40%, leaves you with 132 damage taken, crit will add on 50% for 198. If your tank can't survive 198 damage you really need some more stamina, but maybe that's just my oppinion. What are experiencing is more likely that the attacker actually had some extra damage, mages can do 80 damage with spells, low level people can get a huge % bonus, shamans don't care how much armor you got, rogues have a large portion armor reduction and a ton of other skills/abilities/talents that will increase that damage, and well of course warriors got DPS and on procc hits as well.

View PostOob, on 20 August 2012 - 07:22 PM, said:

You also have to take into consideration the clip size, accurracy, and firerate of each weapon.

I've taken only 15-40 damage from a p90 rogue (mix of crits and sin strikes), but the firerate of the p90 with the faster attack speed makes it cut through my characters like butter (even my tank warrior with 20% block rate and shaman with 15% block rate). Not to mention that rogues that take adrenaline rush (a non specific weapon related talent, as in dagger rogues CAN take it) can make their shots unavoidable and unblockable. Any class with on hit effects can take advantage of the p90 just because of the large clip size.

Again, the problem isn't as much the p90 as the distance required for it to be effective can easily be gained with blink and vanish. If the p90 "cuts through you like butter", why wouldn't an ak or a m4 do the same? Point blank any weapon can be sprayed to the head, well okay any automatic weapon. As for Adrenaline Rush, yes it will increase the damage output by an average of 20% vs your tank, as you don't get that 20% block. But doesn't tanks get some skill at high levels that reduces the damage takent by 20% or more? Hmm Shield Wall perhaps?


View PostOob, on 20 August 2012 - 07:22 PM, said:

The autosniper feels very similar to me to the p90 for the mod except that it excels at long range where the p90 excels at close range. A large clip size and good damage (specially with on hit effect and/or head shots) make it a great gun for just about all classes. Heck it was the main thing to use during boss events (even though the main reason was to keep distance from the boss).

Yes the autosnipers are strong at long range, but it can be countered rather easily, again blink or vanish will take out that autosniper, or even a dps class with an awp can. Besides with the damage difference being as small as it currently is, 13% according to bigi but I don't trust his numbers, I don't see why some classes have that big an advantage with it over other classes. So the question is, why aren't everyone using it? Either because it is already so expensive in the game that in itself limits the numbers of them we see, or they aren't as strong as people seem to think, or people just don't like using it. I don't see a reason to nerf it further yet.

View PostOob, on 20 August 2012 - 07:22 PM, said:

Heck if we restricted autosniper and p90 to 0 per team we might even see other weapons used more often, such as the ump (or the nail gun as I like to call it) or the famas or the galil (not sure if I spelled that right at all :S...).

Heck if we restricted m4 and ak as well we would see even more of those weapons!

View PostEvander, on 20 August 2012 - 07:36 PM, said:

WoW damage based on css weapons damage should totally depend on DPS characters have, which would mean almost no physical damage of casters, but high of DPS classes. Not to leave casters defenseless, all spells based on Spell Damage should be buffed.

I really can't see why that would be better. In my mind here is what you are proposing would be a lot of work for little gain.


View PostEvander, on 20 August 2012 - 07:36 PM, said:

That's just my opinion. To prevent qq's like: "I was onehitted by fireball/deagle headshot", nerf ALL kinds of damage - to keep survivability of all classes.

First, there is always someone who "qq's", they will always find something to whine about, actually if no one is whining of/about a certain class there is a problem, but if everyone whines about all the classes we might just be getting somewhere. So no, damage wont be lowered again, in my oppinion it is still too low.
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Love them for what they are not.
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#20 OFFLINE   Evander

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 03:02 PM

@up
YES! Why would a priest deal lower physical damage than warrior DPS? Priests are supposed to a dps class! <- that is what are we getting atm.
You are getting massive spam or no spam about many things being broken, but you still have your own vision of system, which is for me and for MANY wrong system.
This situation reminds me of previous act of ignorance, which resulted in... we all know how it ended. Please, don't try to make the same mistakes again.




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